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Re: How should Perlmonks deal with Plagiarism?

by syphilis (Bishop)
on Oct 07, 2006 at 09:45 UTC ( #576813=note: print w/replies, xml ) Need Help??

in reply to How should Perlmonks deal with Plagiarism?

I'm always mindful of cultural differences in issues like this. (That's not quite true ... I should say that I try to be mindful of cultural differences ... and that I don't always succeed.)

Here, in this great land of Oz, the early white settlers would quite readily shoot the natives for stealing their sheep and cattle. Yet the aborigines were not thieves. They were merely doing what they had always done - which was to live off the land. And whatever was "on the land" was, to them, to be lived off - be it kangaroos and possums ... or sheep and cattle.

I'd be interested to hear an Indian/Asian perspective on the alleged sins of madtoperl/jesuashok. Perhaps we already have. (I don't know the ethnic/cultural backgrounds of most of the participants in this thread.) I'm currently inclined to think that Indian culture and standards are different to the western viewpoint ... to just what extent, I'm unsure.

In any case, I'd like to be able to get some measure on the extent of those differences before I reach a judgement. This is, after all, a multicultural forum ... not a British, or Australian, or American, or even a "Western", forum.

  • Comment on Re: How should Perlmonks deal with Plagiarism?

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Re^2: How should Perlmonks deal with Plagiarism?
by Anonymous Monk on Oct 07, 2006 at 10:43 UTC

    I am posting anonymously because I do not have an account on perlmonks. I am basically a lurker on perlmonks and sometimes contribute as a anonymous user.

    I am from India and I find this plagiarism as disgusting as you folks. This is definitely not acceptable behaviour in Indian culture.

    Also, it is not correct(IMHO) that this be treated as Asian/Indian, British or American cultural differences. Perlmonks is a global multicultural forum. Some basic behavioural/ethical standards are expected from the people visiting and using these forums irrespective of differences of culture/ethinicity/etc. Plagiarism is definitely not expected behaviour for a perlmonk.

    Regarding the "shunning wall" idea. Will it work? If the perpetrators were clever enough to rig up a scheme to gain XP, whats stopping them form discarding the old account and starting afresh with two new accounts?


Re^2: How should Perlmonks deal with Plagiarism?
by shmem (Chancellor) on Oct 07, 2006 at 10:20 UTC
    You make a valid point, but:

    Had jesuashok or madtoperl answered "yes, it's copied from there. So what?" it would be a different picture, but with their answers "if you see this "C" program somewhere please let me know. It is my own effort. help If you can, otherwise shut." and "Hi, That was also posted by me" they are lying to us in the face of evidence.

    The "stealing" may not be seen as such, but then, why the lies? Is lying condoned in Indian/Asian cultures?


    _($_=" "x(1<<5)."?\n".q·/)Oo.  G°\        /
                                  /\_¯/(q    /
    ----------------------------  \__(m.====·.(_("always off the crowd"))."·
    ");sub _{s./.($e="'Itrs `mnsgdq Gdbj O`qkdq")=~y/"-y/#-z/;$e.e && print}
      Is lying condoned in Indian/Asian cultures?

      I can't give an answer to that question. There are probably Indian perlmonks who can answer that question ... but then there's the issue of whether they would be prepared to truthfully answer that question.

      I can tell you that I worked in Indonesia (Bali, to be precise - which is a Hindu community, by majority) for a few months, and that lying (in order to "save face") was perfectly acceptable, frequently practiced, and never admitted.

Re^2: How should Perlmonks deal with Plagiarism?
by tinita (Parson) on Oct 07, 2006 at 12:08 UTC
    "mindful of cultural differences"

    yes, that's important, of course. but it *can* lead to a wrong way of tolerance.
    i like perlmonks, because it is a community of perl programmers - it's not german, it's not english (well except for the language), it's not japanese, etc.

    and the community lives with its members and also with the discussion of its members. a community has some rules, and even if they are not written down anywhere, they exist.

    anyone who participates in discussion can bring in their own suggestions. if you have valid points, you can just say them here.
    but if everybody in this thread says, plagiarism is not acceptable for them, why should it suddenly be accepted only because there are monks who are practicing it but not joining this discussion?

      a community has some rules, and even if they are not written down anywhere, they exist

      If my Indonesian experience taught me anything, it's that the unwritten rules that (you and) I see are not necessarily seen by people from other cultures. (That's probably the only point I'm trying to make.)

Re^2: How should Perlmonks deal with Plagiarism?
by jacques (Priest) on Oct 08, 2006 at 19:23 UTC
    I agree with you on the cultural differences observation. I was going to make the same point until I read your node. Many Americans just don't realize that plagiarism is viewed differently in other parts of the world. In fact, I have been told that in some countries, plagiarism is expected in certain situations, especially academic ones. (Teachers will get upset if you do *not* plagiarize.) When I was first told this, I was surprised. I guess it is a hard thing to accept when you have been told since childhood that plagarism is wrong. The world is an interesting place. The more you explore it, the more you learn about yourself and your own beliefs.

      I think sight of what "plagerism" means is being lost here.


      Teachers will get upset if you do *not* plagiarize.

      This implies that the pupil is expected to quote from one or more, known (how else would the teacher know that the work was not original?), authoratative sources.

      Quoting from authoratative sources does not fall under the definition of plagerism, the essence of which can be summed up by:

      Taking, using, and passing off as your own, the ideas or words or work of another.

      If the teacher is expecting it to happen, then when it does, they will know it has, because they will recognise the source. There is no deception or misrepresentation involved and therefore the term plagerism does not apply. Even if the reference is uncited, how can it be plagerism if the teacher is expecting it?

      Examine what is said, not who speaks -- Silence betokens consent -- Love the truth but pardon error.
      Lingua non convalesco, consenesco et abolesco. -- Rule 1 has a caveat! -- Who broke the cabal?
      "Science is about questioning the status quo. Questioning authority".
      In the absence of evidence, opinion is indistinguishable from prejudice.
        I am no longer talking about anything that has happened on PerlMonks. I will leave that for others to discuss. But in some cultures, the most important thing is getting the answer right. Whether your work/idea is original is secondary. For example, sometimes students will copy each other's homework. Here in the States, this is a big offense and the students could get in trouble (and rightfully so, since these students are breaking the rules), but in other places, it is not. What is interesting is that it goes well beyond "homework problems". What happens when some company steals your technological innovation and pass it off as thier own? I can think of one country in particuar that is dealing with serious patent issues.

        Since we are getting into a subject that is beyond what has occurred, I will stop here. You can private message me if you want to continue the conversation. What amazes me is that this chap actually cared enough about xp to go through all that trouble.

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