in reply to "running with scissors"

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RE: running with scissors - part 2
by Russ (Deacon) on Aug 01, 2000 at 07:51 UTC
    You seem to approve of in-your-face bluntness in communication, so I've given it to you, here.

    What we want, merlyn, is a little more helpfulness and a little less ego. We all know you are the perl god. You do not need to go around giving font +4's, and terse, ridiculing responses to get us to respect you.

    Here are some examples of terseness, name-calling and rudeness:

    You have our respect, merlyn. What we want is your participation in the community. Posts like "Running with Scissors" serve to distance you from us mere mortals. Why you feel the need to belittle people and bludgeon us with your prestige, I simply do not understand.

    You are a respected, admired member of the perl elite. You don't need to knock anyone down to secure your lofty place. You already have it.

    Now, on a more positive note: you are capable of some truly enjoyable posts.

    Fundamentally, we want you to stop trying to build respect you already have, at the expense of other users. "Running with scissors" is frighteningly arrogant. Your proposed policy of making useless, pejorative posts just to "give (you) piece of mind," without the common decency to consider "details" and "nicey-nice"ness shocked me.

    You said:

    If there's something I'm not getting, you need to tell me.
    Please accept this as the "email or something" response. When you criticize someone's code, do you want them to stomp away and pout? Then don't stop "posting any more public messages." Someone voted you down; take it in the spirit intended (just as you would have someone accept any of your critique) and become an even better person because of it.

    Brainbench 'Most Valuable Professional' for Perl

    P.S. See

    for similar comments.
(Ozymandias) RE: running with scissors - part 2
by Ozymandias (Hermit) on Aug 01, 2000 at 06:22 UTC
    OK, merlyn, what is it going to take?

    If you don't want to take the time to be helpful and courteous - then DON'T. No one is forcing you to reply at all. Others who DO care to take the time and spend the effort will fill the gap.

    But your argument about not having time won't hold water. You don't have time to be courteous. But you have time to make nicely formatted insulting posts. You have time to make formatted boxes around updates to wonder why no one likes the way you do things. But you don't have time to be polite. Gotcha.

    - email Ozymandias

    Update: OK, sorry. I let my frustration get away from me a little bit.

    merlyn, my intention was not to make you stop participating in the community. I don't think that was jc's intention, either. My intention was to show that in the interests of this community, it is best if we present the kindest, gentlest face possible to the new users of Perl. That doesn't mean that you, personally, must always be sweetness and light; if you don't have the time, we will understand. We can fill the gap. No one wants to force you to be nice. We simply ask that you not flame, nor criticize unless it is done in a positive manner.

running with scissors - part 3
by merlyn (Sage) on Aug 02, 2000 at 07:04 UTC
    In case you haven't seen Saints in our book, I requested from vroom and was granted the reduction of my uber-XP to mortal status. (It was odd to see You've lost 1000000 points! when I logged in. :-)

    I've also had some other thoughts during my 24 hour hiatus. But I'll save that for another post when I've got things a bit more formulated.

    I upvoted every reply to me, and took each element of each post to heart. There's a synthesis of the results that is very appropriate, and I'll share that soon.

    -- Randal L. Schwartz, Perl hacker

      You've lost 1000000 points!

      That's one of those things that will probably never again happen on Perl Monks.

      Zenon Zabinski | zdog |

RE: running with scissors - part 2 (sigh)
by ybiC (Prior) on Aug 01, 2000 at 08:29 UTC
    Several valid points/counterpoints made already, so I won't repeat any of them.

    My only observation - merlyn isn't the only fellow Monk who can be outspoken and rough at times.   Is he being held to a higher standard than the rest of us?

    I've never submitted code advanced enough to even warrant his attention, and likely never will. Perhaps I'd feel different if I were the recipient of a "+7 handslap".
        tragedy #3,

    p.s. these two nodes from about a month ago seem particularly relevant.

      That's a point well taken about holding monks to a higher standard. I don't know if those of us with higher ranks should be treated any differently from the newest monk to register. (We ought to understand the way the monastery works better than recent supplicants, but that's not what I mean.)

      I think merlyn is really trying to figure out what to do here. It's not comp.lang.perl.misc, with a huge FAQ, a supporting cast of thousands, and years and years of history. It's not #perl on Efnet, with its own unique blend of rules and conventions. It's not perl5porters, for better or worse.

      It's unique, because it's more egalitarian... it hasn't been around long enough to develop many customs and traditions. The traditions we do have, about trying to help people where they're at, about respecting other people, and about giving the best solution we know how -- even if we're corrected by a dozen other monks in the next thirty seconds -- these traditions we need to encourage. We need to apply them equally to everyone.

      I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that merlyn is really trying to fit in -- why else start a top level discussion node? By all means, suggest ways he can fit in. Give him feedback, example posts comparing posts you consider helpful to posts you consider harmful (if that's not too strong a word).

      Just don't push away a fellow monk with a wealth of knowledge and experience who's trying to fit in and understand the mostly unwritten and still evolving rules here. We all get the chance to make mistakes because we can learn from them. Please don't deny the opportunity for personal growth.

        I honestly don't think that the majority of us want to push Merlyn away. I would love to learn more from him. He has a wealth of knowledge about Perl I wish I could download Matrix style right into my noggin.

        That said, there seems to be a lot of craziness that goes on with having Merlyn contribute here.

        He shares his personal life with us, and like 99% of people, there are messes in his personal life, and that makes some people uncomfortable. Sometimes it makes me uncomfortable.

        I don't want him to go. I have learned about CGI and Cargo Cult programming, etc from his posts, and I wish him luck with his legal troubles.

        I guess what I am trying to say is that we have a culture that aims to help newbies and allows for those shy and uncertain in Perl to have a voice and get the answers they need, and I encourage and cherish that culture.
        I think people hold merlyn to a higher standard for two related reasons; the first, he is who he is, one of the "stars" of the Perl community. Like it or not, we expect more out of those people than the average Tom, Dick, or Harry. The second is directly related to that; merlyn has more XP than anyone on the site, including vroom. Whether you agree with that or not, you have to agree that the fact he has it makes him different from the rest of the Monks.

        - email Ozymandias