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Never been to the site. I do agree that javasoft.com's forums are mostly filled with "write my code for me" kind of stuff, so I don't read that. I'm glad to see PerlMonks source in use, but it's sad for the language that touts Servlets, jsp, etc, to be running a java forum using Perl. Java people dislike Perl (from what I've seen), far more so than Perl folks dislike Java. Why? Usually it's that bias towards "clean OO & readability" and not being able to see the forrest for the trees.

When people have questions on perlmonks, I doubt that people spend more than 10 minutes writing something down on the norm.

Dead on. Perl/Tk questions can take 5 minutes to answer. Whole Perl/Tk apps can take 30 minutes to write. Swing? Those questions and programs can take hours and days! And this is coming from someone who was very good with Java in college.

So, why would a java community have a problem existing? Java is readable, but it is readable like an encyclopedia is readable. That is, you must do a LOT of reading, and a lot of studying. I don't find that conducive to algorithmic thought, and frankly, I find shiny things like functional programming and anonymous data structures to be too elegant to avoid. And you can't really post snippets, since anything non-trivial will take a page or two of code. So you, guess what, just point to online docs. Idioms? No interesting java idioms exist.

Another problem the java community has is the "100% pure java" mentality. Essentially, there is no CJAN (correct me if I'm wrong) full of awesome java jar files to do various tasks, so everyone ends up using the standard API. Innovation is shot, since the first thing you think is "Darn, no function to do that. I guess I'll give up". This is partly because, all of the "sandboxing" and "portability" stuff Java does prevents the API from including functions people actually might want to use, such as (as I was looking for yesterday), a J2SE function to validate OS passwords. Sun avoids such platform specifics like the plague.

In all, I guess I'm saying that the language is so monolithic, a community around it won't contribute to the knowledge of those involved as much. I know, if I really wanted, I could make some popular modules on CPAN and change the way people do work. In java? Unlikely. I don't think there is a place in java for a programmer to evolve, he is only a consumer of Sun API's.

So, all hope of a java community is doomed because of the monolithic nature of the language, we have greater hope for communities around Perl (us!), Lisp, Python, Ruby, and the other more flexible languages that the Java zealots often frown upon. Why? Because they are more fun.

I think you will find a lot of people saying they like java, but very few people being able to say why they like it (in a convincing way). They think Java was the first that invented a way of XYZ (example OOP, clean GUI programming, etc), when in reality, it is not the first, nor is it the best.


In reply to Re: OT: JavaJunkies (Javamonks sorta) by flyingmoose
in thread OT: JavaJunkies (Javamonks sorta) by coreolyn

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