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YAXpD

by azatoth (Curate)
on Jun 22, 2001 at 11:04 UTC ( [id://90645]=monkdiscuss: print w/replies, xml ) Need Help??

...(Yet Another Xp Discussion)...

Although I hope it's a node with a difference.

I have done a cursory Super Search on the site for threads on XP-whoring, but have not really gleaned a satisfactory answer, hence this post.
I would like to get a definitive answer on this - perhaps a few of the monks who tend to stear clear of this type of discussion could give us their thoughts...

Ok, so Why is Xp-Whoring Bad?

Who makes up this rule?

We are constantly going on about how your xp does not necessarily reflect your skill level (the well-written Stubborn as a Saint as one example), and that the xp system exists on perlmonks for fun (/msg me if u remember the link) and nothing else.
So If we can all wax lyrical about how Xp doesn't matter, why do people care if people post a node to get xp? And what "defines" an xp-whoring node? Apart from the obvious "Great Post, You're a Cool Guy" option to get at least one vote,
where's the criteria to differentiate "xp-whoring posts" from "normal posts" (whatever THAT means)?

Personally, I feel if someone puts time and effort into a node, nobody has a right to call them an xp-whore. Perlmonks is an online community that is based on the input from its members. It would be a pretty boring place if all our Poetry, Meditations & Discussions (OT or not) were reaped for being non-code posts and therefore an attempt to glean xp. *Every* post on Perlmonks is an attempt to glean xp. No-one takes the time to format, spellcheck, proofread a post and then think "I hope I don't get any xp for that."
Granted, they may not spend all day agonising over how much xp they do get, but anyone who posts here likes to gain acceptance / respect / a pat on the back / whatever from fellow monks via the ++ vote.

It's a fact of on-line community life : it's nice to feel welcomed. When you feel welcomed, you feel happy. When you feel happy, you're more productive. IMHO

I'm not sure if this post is ringing true with anyone, but I would like a few answers on my questions. This is discussion, and is based on opinion, and if it disagrees with yours, feel free to let me know why :).

Thanks for reading.



Azatoth a.k.a Captain Whiplash

Make Your Die Messages Full of Wisdom!
Get YOUR PerlMonks Stagename here!
Want to speak like a Londoner?

Replies are listed 'Best First'.
Re: YAXpD
by Petruchio (Vicar) on Jun 22, 2001 at 17:30 UTC
    I think it'd be best if I clarified what I said in the chatterbox, because it could easily have been construed wrongly. This would especially be the case if anyone took it as criticism of you, azatoth. It wasn't. Let me try this again.

    When you ask, 'Why is XP-Whoring Bad?' I think we have to get down to a definition pretty quickly. XP-whoring is not, to me, when you write a non-code post. And if having people upvote your posts makes you happy, that's wonderful. I don't think there's any necessary relationship between XP-whoring and feeling happy or welcome. Indeed, if PerlMonks makes you happy, and you're learning by the 'metric assload', that's a victory for PerlMonks. I wish everyone the same.

    XP-whoring, to me, is when you do things simply, or mostly, for the XP you hope to get. That is not, I think, something which is conductive to the health of our community.

    Now that's pretty hard to measure; only you really know why you do what you do. And yet, our prosperity as a community depends, more than anything else, on the attitudes our citizens carry with them.

    Anyone here can vote randomly, just to get the XP, nobody will know but them. You can quietly help degrade the voting system, and you'll win. Only the community will lose.

    Likewise, what is accomplished when a person begs for votes in the Chatterbox, because they've only got a few points until some level? Should such a person feel good about those votes? That's not a matter of someone saying 'thank you' or 'good job' for your post; it's giving a handout to a mooch. How does doing this help the community?

    Or pointing out, in the chatterbox, something you've written. Do you think it's germaine to the conversation, and likely to be interesting to the others? Or are you airing the equivalent of annoying advertisements? In my opinion, the distinction is important.

    I could go on in this vein, but I hope it's not necessary. It's not enough that you feel happy and welcome here, and that you learn things. It's important that others do too; whether they will depends, in part, on you. If you're doing what you do for others, as well as yourself, you're not an XP-whore.

    Just take things in moderation. Enjoy your XP, sure, but keep your priorities straight. Hopefully you already do. If your actions make people feel welcome and help them learn, I wish you a metric assload of XP.

Re: YAXpD
by Mungbeans (Pilgrim) on Jun 22, 2001 at 14:51 UTC
    $xp != $perl_ability; # This is not a bad thing...

    Every language needs articulate advocates. Speaking as an self taught, self styled neophyte, my communication skills are a lot stronger than my perl skills (not that that's saying much). Contribute what you can, whether it be experience, humour, ideas, algorithms.

    If people are prepared to spend posting interesting ideas, then I don't care what their motive is. If people enjoy XP, even more the better.

    XP Whoring is bad if...

    If we get too much crap 'one liners' then that is a filtering problem but I don't think there's too much of that happening, and if it does judicious -- should fix it.

    If we get the Slashdot signal to noise ratio.

    If we piss off the experienced monks who put a lot of effort into answering questions and helping the acolytes. I'm constantly amazed at the time these people put in, and the level of expertise.

    If we lose focus.

    All subjective of course, one monks xp whoring is another's inspiration.

    "The future will be better tomorrow."

Re: YAXpD
by xphase_work (Pilgrim) on Jun 22, 2001 at 17:18 UTC
    I have no problem with some Xp-whoring, as I've said in reply to: (Kidding) XP-whoring HOW-TO. I have issues with Xp-Whores that issue redundant posts into a node. I'm aware that people may post while others are doing write-ups, but you can tell some posts are just written to get ++'s by containing the same info that was given earlier.

    Another issue I have with some Xp-Whores is that they rely way too much on the TMTOWTDI idea in the SoPW area. While it is very good to expose perl newbies that there are different ways to do things, they only need to be exposed to a few of the better ways. In general SoPW works very well with the TMTOWTDI idea, newer members of perlmonks post their ideas on how to do it, and then the more experienced members help to refine those ways. This allows everyone to learn more about perl, and to become better programmers. Sometimes you'll see a post later in the discussion that ignores any discussion previous to it, and shows another way to do it, one that may not be very good for any number of reasons.

    Finally, I think that some people Xp-whore too soon after joining, the monastery. They haven't seen some of the advice that's given again and again, and they don't know some of the common answers that are generally accepted in the monastery. For example, a new Initiate trying to Xp-whore might respond to a question about parsing a query string with a method they thought of as opposed to pointing to a node like use CGI or die;. Which although not original, is much better advice. Plus using references to other nodes is a great Xp-whoring tip ^_^

    The way to Xp-Whore is to post often, post well, and post things that show that you are trying or at least will make others think, like YAXpD by azatoth, hint hint, nudge nudge. Basically there is little difference between posting and good Xp-Whoring, the only difference is that bad Xp-Whoring is posting anything at all to try and get votes.

    That's it for my opinion, sorry if parts of this make no sense, or are disjointed, as I have yet to have coffee, and have to keep doing bits of work, which de-rail my train of thought. So if anything is wrong, or doesn't make sense, or is just really stupid, please /msg me, or reply to this.

    -xPhase

Re: YAXpD
by neshura (Chaplain) on Jun 23, 2001 at 03:28 UTC
    Every designed system has unforeseen weaknesses that, when discovered by the alert or very bored, may be taken advantage of in ways that seem or may in fact be morally bankrupt. Gaming a system often becomes more fun and profitable than participating legitimately. (Insider trading, vote-bot operation, borrowing a dog to attract chiX0rs...)

    An excess of XP-Whoring means more time is spent talking about the voting system than talking about Perl. I've got no problem with that -- this is a "Perl community", the second word's as important as the first. Everyone who ever spent quality time here has the potential to go on to found their own community, so avoiding discussion on sociotechnological phenomenons like "trolls", "karma/XP-whoring", and "reaping" is short-sighted.

    My view is that hacking a social system is as good for said system as hacking a poorly secured box -- short-term bad, long-tem good. Anyone who XP-whores PM merely for XP is no better than a cracker stealing cc #s, while the people poking at the system trying to find new ways to get XP are XP-Hackers.

    e-mail neshura

Re: YAXpD
by Anonymous Monk on Jun 22, 2001 at 15:49 UTC
    As the term suggests it's kind of like sex. People have sex all the time and usually do it for certain generally accepted reasons like expressing affection, having fun, and procreation. Sometimes people do it for money but that is so taboo in many communities that thousands of people are punished anually for explicitly and specifically exchanging sex and money. Even though it goes on implicitly all the time.

    Now here's a website focused on perl, with a voting system that didn't always exist. People post here in order to learn, teach and also to provide their peers with a certain kind of browsing experience, focused on perl and enlightening (or something, something good). Xp and rep are just reflections of the information generating perl centered activity, like money, and it's somewhat taboo to exchange the activity explicitly and specifically for xp. Even though it's normal to receive xp for the activity!

    So to answer then question Why is Xp-Whoring Bad?

    It shifts the focus of the site by shifting the reason for participating.
    It puts the cart before the horse.

Re: YAXpD
by azatoth (Curate) on Jun 22, 2001 at 12:28 UTC
    Ok I'll reply to my own node...

    What I am basically saying is thus :

    My name is azatoth and I am an Xp-Whore.

    Consider this :
    I have been involved in Perl for : 4 / 5 months
    I have been a member of PerlMonks since January 01.
    I am not very technically minded.
    I am a people person.
    Perhaps, due to my social skills, I am merely a Sociopath with a talent for manipulating the system?


    I will say, however, that I have learned a "metric assload" (to quote redmist) since I joined the community. And I enjoy learning more.



    Update: Petruchio pointed out something I said above which is wrong. *Every* post on here is not an attempt to glean xp, but I believe after every post people think "I'm pleased with that. I hope others will show it pleases them too." Hmm. I am having great difficulty articulating what I feel, so I am now going to give up.

    Azatoth a.k.a Captain Whiplash

    Make Your Die Messages Full of Wisdom!
    Get YOUR PerlMonks Stagename here!
    Want to speak like a Londoner?

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