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Re^8: Will Perl 6 Replace Perl 5?

by chromatic (Archbishop)
on Sep 23, 2010 at 16:45 UTC ( #861609=note: print w/replies, xml ) Need Help??


in reply to Re^7: Will Perl 6 Replace Perl 5?
in thread Will Perl 6 Replace Perl 5?

How many times can I explain the intentions of the developers? We release a new version of our software every month. It gets better every month. When it passes the complete specification test suite, we'll say so. We can't tell you if it meets your needs because we don't know the specifics of your needs.

Quibbling over whether it's "done" or "stable" or "alpha" or "complete" or "vaporware" or "useful" is silly.

Specific questions get specific answers (but specific questions about "What does your version number mean?" get the specific answer "The larger the number, the more recent the release.")

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Re^9: Will Perl 6 Replace Perl 5?
by Arunbear (Prior) on Sep 24, 2010 at 10:49 UTC
    We can't tell you if it meets your needs because we don't know the specifics of your needs.

    I suspect that for a lot of people the needs will be the same ones that make them use Perl 5, e.g. speed, reliability, good documentation, libraries etc ...

      Everyone wants those things, like everyone wants a good job, a nice house, freedom, and pie.

      My business needs specific things, like the ability to parse PseudoPOD documents to emit XHTML or LaTeX. I don't care if Perl 6 lacks an ODBC driver or an OpenID library because I don't need them. Rakudo doesn't have to be as fast as Perl 6 for the kinds of work I use it for either; it has to be able to process a novel-length book in a minute. If you're doing exchange trading, your speed goal may be very different.

      That's what I mean by "specifics".

        There is a definite set of specifics that will matter to a large number of businesses e.g.
        • a MySQL driver
        • parsers and generators for XML and JSON
        • a web application framework
        • a logging framework
        • a socket framework
        • an HTTP client
        • documentation
        (in addition to these my business would need clients for FTP and NNTP)

        I think it's not unreasonable to equate the readiness of Perl 6 with the availability of such specifics (certainly myself and many others won't be able consider Perl 6 as a viable development platform until such items are available).

Re^9: Will Perl 6 Replace Perl 5?
by BrowserUk (Pope) on Sep 23, 2010 at 17:28 UTC
    When it passes the complete specification test suite, we'll say so.

    I'd be happy to hear that the specification test suite was complete. Or even, completable. Because that would mean the specification was complete. Maybe by Christmas ...

      I'd be happy to hear that the specification test suite was complete. Or even, completable. Because that would mean the specification was complete. Maybe by Christmas ...
      Then at least be happy that we understand the difference between convergence and divergence. Also consider being happy that we think we understand that trying to horse the fish into the boat often results in divergence rather than convergence if it over-stresses your leader. We have to play the fish so that it does not overtax the equipment. We see that the fish is getting tired already. When it's time for the net, it'll be obvious.

      And the fact of the matter is that the pace of spec changes is slowing down. These days most of the substantive spec changes are a direct result of observing how various implementations are attempting to nail down the loose flounders so they don't flop around the boat quite so much. Of course, until "Christmas" comes, people will continue to carp...

      And of course, they will continue to carp afterwards too. Some people are just never happy unless they have something to be unhappy about.

        And the fact of the matter is that the pace of spec changes is slowing down. These days most of the substantive spec changes are a direct result of observing how various implementations are attempting to nail down the loose flounders so they don't flop around the boat quite so much.

        I feel these kinds of information are what's a bit missing. It's understandable that the Perl 6 community itself is more thrilled by newly implemented features than things that didn't change for a while, but I think that a stable language spec is the basis for a growing (maybe even inter-implementation) ecosystem. And that's going to be a green light for a lot more people. After all, it's easier for people to contribute to CPAN than p5p.


        Ordinary morality is for ordinary people. -- Aleister Crowley

        How goes concurrency? Specs, rakudo, ?

        The trouble with Carp is they are canny fish. You've got learn to ground bait.


        Examine what is said, not who speaks -- Silence betokens consent -- Love the truth but pardon error.
        "Science is about questioning the status quo. Questioning authority".
        In the absence of evidence, opinion is indistinguishable from prejudice.
Re^9: Will Perl 6 Replace Perl 5?
by phaylon (Curate) on Sep 24, 2010 at 03:11 UTC

    Yes, but how stable is the specification? How far along Rakudo is isn't that important (at least to me) as the language itself is. It's the language that provides the real long-term stability, not the implementation. For outsiders, it's not obvious how far along the specification is. I assume many parts are fleshed out and really well thought through, while others haven't been touched yet because the implementations aren't there yet and people still need to play around with it. But I can't know what sections are where. So even if I evaluate Rakudo for my use-case today, it doesn't say anything about what will be tomorrow. And it's the tomorrow people are interested in.

    And I'm not quibbling over any of those terms. Also, again, I'm not interested in the version numbers.

    By the way, you're coming across as quite aggressive. I don't know if that's intentional or not. But just to be clear: I don't (yet) care about Perl 6. At least not from a usage point-of-view. I'd be happy if I had more time for version 5 in fact. So I'm not trying to pressure you into an answer. I just feel that the discussion about version numbers has taken over the discussions about the actual questions that people have.


    Ordinary morality is for ordinary people. -- Aleister Crowley
      Yes, but how stable is the specification?

      I suspect—and speak only for myself here—that the Perl 6.0.0 specification will be complete right about the same time that Rakudo (or another implementation) implements all of the specification.

        That's an awesome answer! I know that you can only speak for yourself, but if the Perl 6 community deems Rakudo a good testbed for the specification, that's something an ecosystem can be built on. If an early-adopter rule-of-thumb is that "stuff that has been in Rakudo for a while is relatively safe," people can use that subset to start writing libraries they feel safe to release.

        Thanks again, since I can now start imagining how a Perl 6 CPAN would form, and know what to watch out for to step on to the Perl 6 train.


        Ordinary morality is for ordinary people. -- Aleister Crowley

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