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When I'm arguing with a fool...

by blazar (Canon)
on Sep 05, 2007 at 03:39 UTC ( #637052=poll: print w/replies, xml ) Need Help??

Vote on this poll

chances are he's doing the same
[bar] 160/31%
certainly he's doing the same
[bar] 92/18%
I'm in clpmisc, being told I am an elitist b**tard for pointing out that "it doesn't work" is not an appropriate description of the problem
[bar] 43/8%
he's claiming Perl to be "constantly loosing ground on php"
[bar] 93/18%
[bar] 135/26%
523 total votes
Replies are listed 'Best First'.
Re: When I'm arguing with a fool...
by andreas1234567 (Vicar) on Sep 05, 2007 at 07:05 UTC
    "Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference".

    Mark Twain


      "The ability to quote is a serviceable substitute for wit."

      - W. Somerset Maugham

      print substr("Just another Perl hacker", 0, -2);
      - apotheon
      CopyWrite Chad Perrin

      great quote.

      I was born in Hannibal, MO....the hometown of Tom Saywer and Huckleberry Finn. (and also mr twain for a while)

      /end pointless comments

Re: When I'm arguing with a fool...
by adrianh (Chancellor) on Sep 05, 2007 at 13:33 UTC
    I cannot believe that "I pity the fool" wasn't an option :-)
Re: When I'm arguing with a fool...
by kyle (Abbot) on Sep 05, 2007 at 04:01 UTC

    ...I hope nobody's listening to me talk to myself.

    There comes a time in some arguments—a time of futility—where I find myself tempted to make absurd statements (and defend them) to amuse myself. The big problem is that arguing effectively with a fool can be hard work with little or no reward. It's easy to toss out some ridiculous assertion and see if it sticks, but it can be hard to gather up all the evidence necessary to really bury it. And when you're done, is the fool enlightened? It is the nature of fools that enlightenment does not reach them.

      There's that bit in "Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy" ...

      The problem with talking to yourself is that you know what you're going to say half the time.

Re: When I'm arguing with a fool...
by mr_mischief (Monsignor) on Sep 05, 2007 at 03:53 UTC
    I like the idea of constantly "loosing" the ground under other languages!
      An appropriate song from France by Pierre Perret that's all too true, and a good lesson to remember when one is feeling superior:

      Qu'on soit con ou pas con
      On est toujours le con de quelqu'un
      Mais on est rassurť ŗ chaque fois
      Qu'on trouve toujours plus con que soi


      Whether you're a fool or not a fool
      You're always someone's fool
      But we're always reassured
      'Cause we always find someone more foolish than ourselves

      Forget that fear of gravity,
      Get a little savagery in your life.
        You want to know something really foolish? How about ascribing to someone an emotion you only assume they are feeling, then chiding them for it? ;-)

        As for loosening the foothold other languages have, that's nothing to do with myself or Perl programmers in general being superior to anyone. It's a hope that Perl, my preferred language, continues to have its strengths built upon and its weaknesses corrected. There is no tool that's best for every job, but then a general purpose language isn't so much a tool as a whole tool set. There's nothing wrong with having a favorite tool set so long as it meets your needs. The more Perl improves compared to other languages, the less often I need to reach for something other than my preferred tool set.

        People involved with the communities around other languages should be hoping for the same thing for theirs. In fact, it's nice when another language shows Perl up in one way or another, only for Perl to catch up. Rivalries can be taken too far, but there's nothing wrong with Perl people voicing distaste for things in other languages that really do need improving and vice versa. In the end, it can mean several languages end up serving the needs of programmers better.

Re: When I'm arguing with a fool...
by Popcorn Dave (Abbot) on Sep 05, 2007 at 19:03 UTC
    Where was the option "I'm usually at work"? That's where I argue with the most fools.

    Revolution. Today, 3 O'Clock. Meet behind the monkey bars.

    I would love to change the world, but they won't give me the source code

      Not really, sad truth is fools are just everywhere: from the lowest depths of social tissue to the highest heights and especially in leading roles. Even worse: most of times "fool" is just not enough to describe such people: if only were they simply fools...

      Also, I'm a fool, and I don't even work. Gee!

        Yeah but at work you're stuck with them. Everywhere else you can just ignore 'em.
Re: When I'm arguing with a fool...
by Moriarty (Abbot) on Sep 05, 2007 at 04:35 UTC

    I try to avoid arguments with fools as they tend to drag people down to their level where they've had much more practice. :)

      I'm not really sure. I'm a fool, definitely, 100%, no doubt. Yet I'm easily fooled, all the time...

Re: When I'm arguing with a fool...
by Gavin (Archbishop) on Sep 05, 2007 at 09:07 UTC
    My problem is that I donít know, until its too late and Iíve lost my temper!
Re: When I'm arguing with a fool...
by ww (Archbishop) on Sep 05, 2007 at 15:57 UTC
    It's like wrestling with a pig: the pig enjoys it and you get muddy.

      But sometimes it's like putting socks on a chicken. You never get anywhere, and it annoys the chicken.

        And yet sometimes it simply must be done.

      You would certainly risk much more wrestling with Spider-Pig... D'Oh!

Re: When I'm arguing with a fool...
by atemon (Chaplain) on Sep 05, 2007 at 06:36 UTC

    When you argue with a fool, Spectators may not understand, who is the 'real' fool. So avoid arguing with a fool.


Re: When I'm arguing with a fool...
by zshzn (Hermit) on Sep 05, 2007 at 12:02 UTC
    A monk should be wise; do not argue - teach.
      Cant teach fools
        Of course, fools can't teach fools.

        Open source softwares? Share and enjoy. Make profit from them if you can. Yet, share and enjoy!

Re: When I'm arguing with a fool...
by zentara (Archbishop) on Sep 05, 2007 at 14:24 UTC
    I always pull out the old pretzel logic, to make the fool go into an infinite Wha? loop.

    "If you understand, no explanation is necessary; if you don't understand, no explanation is possible."

    If that dosn't work, I start yelling louder until he/she shrinks away in cowardice, then mutter confidently ............. " you dumb f**k".

    I'm not really a human, but I play one on earth. Cogito ergo sum a bum
Re: When I'm arguing with a fool...
by papidave (Pilgrim) on Sep 06, 2007 at 16:16 UTC
    Proverbs 26:4-5:
    Do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you will be like him yourself.

    Answer a fool according to his folly, or he will be wise in his own eyes.

    I'm not terribly good with implementing nondeterministic logic myself, but I think we could do it with the following snippet:
    my $folly = $fool->folly; if ( fork() ) { # child process answer( $folly); } else { # parent process answer( not $folly ); }
      I had some time to think about it, and realized that my code isn't valid. My earlier example depends on a race condition to select one state or the other. What I _should_ have done is implement a solution that acts both ways without interference:
      my $folly = $fool->folly; my $tabby = new Cat( owner => 'Schroedinger' ); answer( $folly ) if ( $tabby->alive ); answer( not $folly ) unless ( $tabby->alive );
      The problem I've been running into is that the first time I call Cat::alive(), the quantum decoherence collapses, and it only invokes answer() once. Does anyone have a method for measuring the "alive" state of $tabby without actually looking into the box? I think I need to modify the implementation of sub alive() ...

        use Quantum::Superpositions:

        use Quantum::Superpositions; sub You::answer_according_to_his_folly() { any( 0, 1 ) } not $you->answer_according_to_folly($fool) or $you->be_like($fool); $you->answer_according_to_folly($fool) or $fool->be_wise_in_own_ey +es();
        A word spoken in Mind will reach its own level, in the objective world, by its own weight
Re: When I'm arguing with a fool...
by wolfger (Deacon) on Sep 05, 2007 at 19:13 UTC
Re: When I'm arguing with a fool...
by syphilis (Archbishop) on Sep 05, 2007 at 13:57 UTC
    I invariably find that I'm soliloquising.


Re: When I'm arguing with a fool...
by stonecolddevin (Parson) on Sep 05, 2007 at 19:13 UTC


      Should we worry that half the people on a site dedicated to assisting and teach perl consider themselves to be fools?

      -- rogueFalcon
      Why do you people insist on doing things sdrawkcab?

        Not at all. "Zen mind is beginner's mind."

        Or, to pervert a more common saying, "who's the more foolish: the fool, or the fool who argues with him?"

        Ramblings and references
        The Code that can be seen is not the true Code
        I haven't found a problem yet that can't be solved by a well-placed trebuchet

        Only if they make others believe they're fools as well.

Re: When I'm arguing with a fool...
by blue_cowdawg (Monsignor) on Sep 14, 2007 at 19:07 UTC

    Arguing with a fool, is like mud wrestling with a pig; you get all dirty and the pig just enjoys the mud.

    Peter L. Berghold -- Unix Professional
    Peter -at- Berghold -dot- Net; AOL IM redcowdawg Yahoo IM: blue_cowdawg
Re: When I'm arguing with a fool...
by samizdat (Vicar) on Sep 06, 2007 at 12:34 UTC
    Well, there's always the job security of cleaning up after them...

    Of course, when they insist that your servers run Windows and your code be written in Java, it _IS_ difficult to deal with.

    Don Wilde
    "There's more than one level to any answer."
Re: When I'm arguing with a fool...
by sgt (Deacon) on Sep 05, 2007 at 11:31 UTC

    argue fool. humm fool -- right absorbing element.

Re: When I'm arguing with a fool...
by f00li5h (Chaplain) on Sep 06, 2007 at 04:45 UTC


    I tend to go with "that's my answer, feel free to ignore it and continue doing what you've already said is wrong."

    @_=qw; ask f00li5h to appear and remain for a moment of pretend better than a lifetime;;s;;@_[map hex,split'',B204316D8C2A4516DE];;y/05/os/&print;

Re: When I'm arguing with a fool...
by jesuashok (Curate) on Sep 05, 2007 at 06:00 UTC
    when I'm arguing with a fool I fell that I am also becoming a fool. So, It is good that never argue with a fool.

    i m possible
Re: When I'm arguing with a fool...
by ysth (Canon) on Sep 07, 2007 at 17:28 UTC
    I toy with him?
    "Indeed, there was no one equal to himself among the men with whom he associated, and this he had felt as a depressing influence, although he had never recognized the cause of his depression. There was Mr Ashton, the vicar, who had succeeded Mr. Browning, a thoroughly good and kind-hearted man, but one without an original thought in him; whose habitual courtesy and indolent mind led him to agree to every opinion, not palpably heterodox, and to utter platitudes in the most gentlemanly manner. Mr. Gibson had once or twice amused himself, by leading the vicar on in his agreeable admissions of arguments 'as perfectly convincing,' and of statements as 'curious but undoubted,' till he had planted the poor clergyman in a bog of heretical bewilderment. But then Mr. Ashton's pain and suffering at suddenly finding out into what a theological predicament he had been brought, his real self-reproach at his previous admissions, were so great that Mr. Gibson lost all sense of fun, and hastened back to the Thirty-nine Articles with all the good-will in life, as the only means of soothing the vicar's conscience. On any other subject, except that of orthodoxy, Mr. Gibson could lead him any lengths; but then his ignorance on most of them prevented bland acquiescence from arriving at any results which could startle him.
Re: When I'm arguing with a fool...
by petdance (Parson) on Sep 10, 2007 at 14:19 UTC
    I read this as "When I'm arguing with a food..." and was wondering what pop culture reference I was missing.


      there's a party in my tummy...
Re: When I'm arguing with a fool...
by apl (Monsignor) on Sep 12, 2007 at 14:26 UTC
    Mark Twain is purported to have said "It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt."

    So I try not to argue...
      .oO(What does that mean? Better say something or they'll think you're stupid.)

      Takes one to know one.



      Sorry, couldn't resist ;) (from Lisa's First Word)
Re: When I'm arguing with a fool...
by loris (Hermit) on Sep 13, 2007 at 06:46 UTC

    ... I rather be fooling with my arguments.


    "It took Loris ten minutes to eat a satsuma . . . twenty minutes to get from one end of his branch to the other . . . and an hour to scratch his bottom. But Slow Loris didn't care. He had a secret . . ." (from "Slow Loris" by Alexis Deacon)
Re: When I'm arguing with a fool...
by Aim9b (Monk) on Sep 13, 2007 at 17:54 UTC
    ...And from our "There's no fool like an OLD fool" dept...

    Functions have argunents, but arguments have no function.
Re: When I'm arguing with a fool...
by wjw (Priest) on Sep 13, 2007 at 19:04 UTC
    I keep it short... then start asking questions. Arguing is generally a fools game. Everyone has a bloody answer/solution/opinion, and they generally are not really wrong, just unclear from other perspectives. The key is to ask a good question.
    • ...the majority is always wrong, and always the last to know about it...
    • The Spice must flow...
    • my will, and by will alone.. I set my mind in motion
Re: When I'm arguing with a fool...
by thezip (Vicar) on Sep 05, 2007 at 20:50 UTC

    ... he often interjects quite loudly, "PURPLE CARROTS!"

    Where do you want *them* to go today?
Re: When I'm arguing with a fool...
by blazar (Canon) on Sep 05, 2007 at 22:13 UTC

    Certainly he's doing the same. Except that I don't want to give the false impression not to be a fool otherwise: in fact I am all the time, hence e.g. that clpmisc thing which also applies.

Re: When I'm arguing with a fool...
by technojosh (Priest) on Sep 12, 2007 at 21:50 UTC
    When I'm arguing with a fool, I'm usually spending the afternoon filling in on the phones for tech support.

    can you guess what I did this afternoon?

Re: When I'm arguing with a fool...
by DrHyde (Prior) on Sep 10, 2007 at 13:44 UTC
    When I'm arguing with a fool, I'm generally arguing with someone who takes Linux or some other religion seriously. I'm a fool to take *them* seriously enough to bother.
Re: When I'm arguing with a fool...
by Anonymous Monk on Sep 10, 2007 at 01:17 UTC
    I feel like I'm talking to my wife.

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