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Re: Rule change re: reaping OT nodes

by davido (Cardinal)
on Nov 30, 2005 at 02:47 UTC ( [id://512829]=note: print w/replies, xml ) Need Help??


in reply to Rule change re: reaping OT nodes

The proper response to off-topic nodes is to not approve them. To approve a node is to approve it as on-topic in the section to which it was posted. If it's not on topic, don't approve it. You make the point that Seekers of Perl Wisdom should only contain questions about Perl. You're right (within a range of tolerance for slightly-off-topic posts). So don't approve non-Perl questions into SoPW. That's what the approval system is there for. If a node gets approved that shouldn't be, consider it for unapproval.

Reaping is an inappropriate action in response to an off-topic node. This is documented in the text that every monk with moderation priviliges should read: What is consideration?. Just because a handful of people jumped on the reaping bandwagon before people who are familiar with documented site policy had time to vote to keep the node doesn't mean that they were right. They just took the easy response to a consideration; agree with the motion even if the motion might disgregard documented and established site policy.

Remember, reaping just takes four quick reap votes (with fewer than 2 'keep' votes) and a negative node reputation. The rest is completely out of Janitors' hands; it's automated. But the act of reinstating a reaped node requires the act of one of the gods. The fact that the node you've mentioned got reinstated should tell you that the gods felt strongly enough about the inappropriate action to take the unusual measure of manually undoing the automated process that you set in motion with your consideration.


Dave

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Re^2: Rule change re: reaping OT nodes
by ysth (Canon) on Nov 30, 2005 at 04:42 UTC
    I read friedo's question as suggesting a change in policy. This is certainly the place to discuss that.
Re^2: Rule change re: reaping OT nodes
by friedo (Prior) on Nov 30, 2005 at 14:00 UTC
    The approval system is great and all, but suffers from a major flaw. Like many monks I browse PM by looking at Newest Nodes, which includes un-approved nodes. If I come across an un-approved node with an on-topic question, then great, I approve it. But if it's an off-topic question, there's nothing I can do to warn subsequent monks not to waste their time. If we're not going to delete OT nodes (and I can certainly appreciate the arguments against doing so) then we need some other kind of thing. Perhaps a forum dedicated to questions that only peripherally involve Perl?

    To be clear, I think we need some sort of state that can be changed when an off-topic node is detected in SoPW, rather than leaving it in the default state.

      I partially agree. But not for the reasons you think.</conversatron> The main reason I agree is because people need something to do when they perceive a problem. For people who see nodes that they consider too off-topic, it isn't very satisfying to respond by not approving, not replying, and not up-voting. And down-voting or sending a private /msg isn't very satisfying because it is usually under most people's radar.

      The main reason I disagree is because, from experience, "off topic" is a slippery slope and officially trying to have such a category leads to a lot of mislabeling and even more (mostly useless) haggling.

      A practice that I haven't noticed much of recently (probably mostly due to my lack of looking) that was all the rage not too long ago, was that of considering nodes for "edit: mark OT". That seems to meet the requirements you stated above near perfectly, IMHO.

      Of course, my impression of "mark OT" behavior is that it doesn't work very well. But it doesn't work very well for reasons that would apply to any alternate system for separating out "off topic" nodes. People just don't agree what is "on topic". I see plenty of nodes asking questions about Perl that the author has marked "OT", usually, it appears, because the question is about how to do something in Perl rather than directly and purely about Perl itself.

      So "mark OT" is the best we have. I don't see us getting anything much better. We might one day have an official "OT" marking that prevents a node from being approved. But you don't surf via nodes that are affected by approval status so this shouldn't matter to you. And I think making it official in that way would be a mixed blessing. And we have a lot more important changes to the approval system that have been written and tested for years that have still not been applied. So, I'm not holding my breath.

      Having tried to form a consensus (and nearly succeeding but being thwarted by Petruchio jumping into the conversation w/o reading the context and refusing to drop his "point" that was only tangentially related) on improvements for dealing with extremely off-topic nodes (like requests for money), I'm not holding my breath there either. That is, I don't think it will be easy to find agreement on technical solutions for "dealing with" off-topic nodes.

      At this point, I'd suggest better documenting what is on-topic and what is off-topic, being sure to stress that PerlMonks is for questions primarily of interest to many Perl programmers, not just for "pure Perl" questions (note that I consider even "pure HTML" questions to be a grey area, not something that is clearly off-topic). I think this thread gives more evidence that keeping the focus of PerlMonks wide is not an unpopular idea. And I suggest documenting "mark OT" as the official "way to deal with" nodes that are merely off-topic (but more than just marginally so).

      I don't think "mark OT" will work very well. And so I consider it mostly a waste of time. But it also has a rather small down-side -- that is, it will be fairly easy for me (and some others) to mostly ignore. But some will probably find the categorization useful. It will likely be useful as an outlet. And it may be useful in progressing the definition of what the focus of PerlMonks is or should be, which would probably be the biggest win -- having a clear, official statement, based on input from many users, to point people to when there is conflict over whether something is on- or off-topic.

      - tye        

      I wonder if perhaps it would be helpful for there to be "Yet Another Option" in User Settings that prevented people from seeing unapproved nodes in Newest Nodes. We already have such an option that prevents seeing them in their proper sections. If that's too extreme, maybe it would prevent seeing them if they haven't been approved after 10 minutes.

      The majority of people would never use the option, so nodes would still get approved, but for those who really hate seeing the unapprovable stuff, it would help filter that out.


      Dave

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