Without a very good knowladge of Kannada, it's impossible for me to tell if that's over the line or not. Certianly, it is possible to talk about women, and even their blouses and bras (the only words there that I'm fairly certian I can tell what they mean), without being over any line. Indeed, the line is highly variable.

What I can tell is who is speaking -- did you try to tell them that you thought their language was out-of-line? That should always be the first line of defense for things like this -- people talking to people, and trying to work things out between each-other before bringing the big bad gods into play.

Given the transient nature of the chatterbox, this problem should have been dealt with in the chatterbox itself.

If the offense was there, some of the power users could have sanctioned some borg time to the culprits (Chatterbox FAQ).

That would have solved the problem and got rid of the offense. (After a few minutes)

Instead, with your intervention, the offense is in this page forever (or until someone decrees to remove it).

Now, according to your own request, what should we do to you? You've done the same as the offenders you are indicating, with the aggravation that your offense is permanent, while theirs is long gone.

I am not saying that such behaviour should not go unsanctioned (although I have no way of telling if there was any misbehaviour there), but that you are making a bad situation worse.

It's like writing in a newspaper "passing by the school, I heard two students using the F word". Before you wrote it, it was a limited problem, and the headmaster could have solved it. After you wrote it, it becomes a planetary issue, which is now known to anyone, even the ones who were not connected at that time, even the ones who usually don't pay attention to the chatterbox, and the ones (the majority, I think) who did not know that such words were offensive.

Why making such a big fuss? Let the CB deal with CB issues.

Hi rnahi and others,

Letting know others will for sure result in people understanding that this should not be repeated and ensuring further from each individual that they dont make the same mistake.

There is nothing wrong in this becoming a planetary issue , its all about awareness.

If you had not known this you wouldnt have given your opinion..i guess this monastery is succesfull as it has all good comments/opinions integrated to it and not a headmasters rule alone

The offensive in this page is forever... yeah why not ! its just like a permanent sign on the highway indicating "Accident Zone" ... "Go Slow".

My intention is not to let people know that these are the offensive words in a particular language ,..it was to tell these arent the words to be discussed further.

I would have appreciated if you had also suggested a solution to the problem rather than looking at what impact this node will create.

Best regards to rest

Prad

Freedom of Speech doesn't play into this. Freedom of Speech only regulates what you are allowed to publish on your own. I see it more as an issue of common courtesy to behave as in polite company in the CB. The CB is (part of) a community, and to me, decent and respectful behaviour is important in that community.

agreed, personally i love all kinds of filth- even filth i dont understand.

anyway, isn't it just easy enough to /ignore the person?

I believe it was the author Evelyn Beatrice Hall who wrote (in the early 1900s and under a male pseudonym as was customary at that time), 'I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it'. I feel I have to agree with her even though I can imagine some rather unpleasant possible cases.

-M

Free your mind

I always have a sort of schizophrenic feeling about vulgar speech and censorship. I am offended by vulgar speech, as are many others; however, I am equally offended by censorship, especially when applied to me. When I look at this rationally, it boils down to my trying to claim that it's OK for me to be vulgar, but don't anyone else try it... obviously I am being hypocritical about it.

I guess that the bottom line for me is that I feel it's better for me to put up with some profanity now and then, and to maintain freedom of speech, than to try to censor people. I think that first off, most people really are decent and civilized, even though they may let loose with a choice epithet on occasion. Those who aren't, generally get ostracized if they get too outrageous. And really, once you start to censor, where do you draw the line? Many words are ambiguous, or have legitimate meanings in context. Is "cum" a bad word? How about "magna cum laude"? We have the forbidden seven in English - but what about languages like Yiddish, which English has borrowed from - is "schmuck" a bad word?

While I regret that some people have chosen to speak disrespectfully about others, or to use profane words, I think that the way the Monastery is run will ultimately keep it from becoming a problem.

I had truly hoped that by this time, this node would have slipped from prominence. Alas, it has not, and as one of the people in the CB at the time this was occurring, I feel I need to clarify a few points.

I think prad intel did absolutely the right thing at the time by bringing the matter to the attention of the English-speakers in the Chatterbox. Ideally, someone with power users membership could have done something then and there about the matter. Unfortunately, while one power user DID try, behind the scenes (as I learned hours later), the attempt was unsuccessful.

prad intel did also provide more detail, via private message to myself, on what the two were talking about, including that they were "joking" between themselves to the effect: "let us now teach them filthy language". Given this information, and the very few bits that were in English, I do believe that what the two were discussing would have been offensive to the larger majority if it had been uttered solely in English, and my particular concern at the time was that it was most certainly offensive to those people in Bangalore, India, who were just coming online at that time. As we all know, the Monastery is viewed in many workplaces, schools, libraries, homes, etc. As a member of this community, I do not want its reputation sullied in any language.

Yes, there were some parts of this whole unfortunate incident that could have been handled much better. Ideally, a power user would have been there when this happened and could have taken steps immediately. I do think a credible warning backed up by perhaps 5-10 minutes in the Borg's Belly for one of both of the offenders would have taken care of the matter long before anyone felt the need to post concerning it.

Life, in general, as it was that morning, is far from ideal.

Would I have posted a partial transcript (and it is partial, omitting the requests of numerous participants for the offenders to cease and desist, and for NodeReaper to come help us out)? No. I would not. Would I have done as prad intel did do, in less public ways? Certainly.

As prad intel correctly did, I would have notified the non-Tamil-speakers of the CB as to the nature of the offenders' conversation. I would have privately copied CB History so that I had a permanent record of what transpired, so the actions of both the offenders and the "innocent" users of the CB could be demonstrated unequivocally should questions arise. And I would have provided that copy as well as a "sanitized" translation to site moderators on request.

I've been here a little while longer than prad intel, so I knew not to take the step of creating such an indelible record of the transgression.

But I also think that a more complete knowledge of what actually transpired than prad intel provided in his post, is necessary before judgment is passed.

IMHO, a very flustered, embarrassed young man, deeply ashamed and offended by the conduct of his countrymen, did the best he could think to do on short notice, having had little experience with the PerlMonks community and its predominately Western culture to date. If I were out of my linguistic, East/West cultural, and online-community depth, I could only hope to do as well.

Thanks to all out there who help to make this crazy community a well-loved home away from home for me, and many others.

In the spirit of How (Not) To Ask A Question, what have you tried already? Your node strikes me as the "high and mighty" type -- you're ranting about people doing things that you find offensive, you aren't giving the majority of our users enough information to determine if it really is offensive, and it seems like you're looking for the lot of us to get upset enough to sanction people.

Did you try suggesting to those chatters that you didn't like their behavior? Where's the line that shows you asking them to stop?

Did you even try messaging one of the power users and asking them to sanction the chatters? It appears not.

If you don't follow the basic steps to deal with something you find offensive when you first find it offensive, why should we be bothered with it later? I find this node far more offensive than any lewd or sexist comments that might have occured in the CB.