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Re: Not Again ... *sighs*

by Ovid (Cardinal)
on Sep 26, 2004 at 19:46 UTC ( #393998=note: print w/replies, xml ) Need Help??


in reply to Not Again ... *sighs*
in thread Abigail-II and some thoughts

They are usually right.

"Amen!" says brother Ovid.

That's the tough part for many to swallow. While I admit that I have also at times struggled with the style of merlyn or Abigail-II, I always pay attention to what they have to say on technical matters. Even if I don't agree with what they say, I find that they usually have compelling reasons for their insights. It's a shame that some people ignore rich food for thought simply because they don't like the color of the plate it's served on.

Cheers,
Ovid

New address of my CGI Course.

Replies are listed 'Best First'.
Re^2: Not Again ... *sighs*
by BrowserUk (Pope) on Sep 26, 2004 at 21:21 UTC
    Being right, does not endow the right to be rude; politeness costs nothing.
    Being unknowing, is not the same as being stupid.
    Expressing a contrary opinion, whether to the individual or the group, is more often a sign of deeper thought than of cantankerous belligerence.
    Do not mistake your goals as the only goals; your opinion as the only opinion; your confidence as correctness. Saying you know better is not the same as explaining you know better.

    Examine what is said, not who speaks.
    "Efficiency is intelligent laziness." -David Dunham
    "Think for yourself!" - Abigail
    "Memory, processor, disk in that order on the hardware side. Algorithm, algorithm, algorithm on the code side." - tachyon
      Being right, does not endow the right to be rude; politeness costs nothing.

      What should we value more, politeness or genius? Seems to me we've driven off a genius - perhaps temporarily, perhaps permanently - because he wasn't polite enough to not offend anyone. Our loss.

      --
      F o x t r o t U n i f o r m
      Found a typo in this node? /msg me
      % man 3 strfry

        Our loss.

        I totally agree. Our loss indeed; but it does make me wonder how our calling him on his impolitness is enough to drive him off?

        It's okay for him to barate people for asking "dumb questions" or reaching "wrong conclusions", but not okay for us to question that?

        Seems to me that if you can't take the heat, you stay out of the kitchen. Not only does being impolite take more effort than being polite; it invites a certain reaction that is both predictable and contextually warrented.

        No amount of genius, seniority, name recognition nor earning power on behalf of an attacker removes the right of the attacked to a defense.

        I have had a tendancy to tilt at windmills all my life, but I've found a quitely spoken statement of fact infinitely more effective than shouting, or being rude.


        Examine what is said, not who speaks.
        "Efficiency is intelligent laziness." -David Dunham
        "Think for yourself!" - Abigail
        "Memory, processor, disk in that order on the hardware side. Algorithm, algorithm, algorithm on the code side." - tachyon

        I don't think politeness and genius need to have anything to do with one another. An asshole is an asshole no matter how smart they are. A high IQ score does not give you any special social priviledges when it comes to being respectful of other people.

        There is a big difference between an eccentric genius who is socially inept and occasionally steps on people's toes, and large grumbling Dutchman who is a very very very smart perl programmer and important member of the community but was many times was just downright rude to people.

        As the saying goes; If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all.

        Of course, that all said, I do very much agree with what chromatic says, and many times found humor in things Abigail said as well.

        -stvn
Re^2: Not Again ... *sighs*
by exussum0 (Vicar) on Sep 27, 2004 at 02:56 UTC
    Yet, people like tye, dragonchild, browseruk, theorbtwo, podmaster and tachyon, leaving off many people, on a daily basis, are quite civil. Some may be more sarcastic or gentle than others, but all in all, they gain a certain respect because they are truely wise. That's why I consider Abigail, just plain smart. He, and perhaps merlin, forget that we are all human and totally miss out on that, which no number of years of perl, will ever help attain.

    Can you respect Oppenheimer for the A-Bomb, of course. He was first a scientist. He did something inovative and cool. But it's because he did something that created such destruction, he becomes controvercial. But abigail and merlyn have yet to kill anyone to my knowledge, but they carry one weapon: their attitudes. Making people feel like poop, regardless of how factual you are, is very demeaning. Some of us out here, have thicker skin. But to the unwise, the lacking of experience and knowledge, their attitudes could easily deter people from persuing perlmonks, perl, programming, or some combination of the three.

    Just food for thought.

    ----
    Then B.I. said, "Hov' remind yourself nobody built like you, you designed yourself"

      {Abigail}, and perhaps {merlyn}, forget that we are all human and totally miss out on that, which no number of years of perl, will ever help attain.
      No, I think that's attributing the wrong cause to the symptoms. I absolutely recognize the humanity in myself and others. But when pressed for time, I deliver "just the facts, ma'am", and leave it to other able and capable human beings to manage their own internal state regarding the cognitive dissonance between their beliefs and my facts. (Actually, to baby other people along seems to be more an admission that I would be viewing people as fragile and incapable. Why would I want to encourage a world like that?) When I have additional time, I also try to handle those issues as well. But I'd rather deliver five important facts in a morning, than one fact surrounded by sugar coating. Excuse me for wanting to get the most bang-for-the-buck. {grin}

      See also my recently posted On Being Polite, which contains similar thoughts expressed differently.

      -- Randal L. Schwartz, Perl hacker
      Be sure to read my standard disclaimer if this is a reply.

        From linked node...
        I'm happy to put the extra effort in to "be polite" when the path is obvious to me and I have the extra time. But when my time is limited, I'm going to yell "get your hand off the stove, now!", and not worry about how to phrase that so as not to damage their ego. I'd rather make a difference than be well liked (as I've said once or twice before, in here).
        Except when you don't, which is quite often. You being polite, objective and "just the facts" is absurd. If that was the case, people wouldn't have such a problem with your terrible attitude and your assine ways. PERIOD. You are the complete polar opposite to wassercrats. Smart, but not at all wise. You lack the ability to be everything you claim and be civil. Compare your write up to someone like tye, theorbtwo or tachyon. While tye may be more sarcastic than some, he's hardly ever rude. to2 and tachyon NEVER let their emotion in. Look at, "the facts". Go read their nodes, really. And if you can't see how you are offensive, then you really are no better than wassercrats or some others who's ego's just blind them. And to think that people aren't at all fragile is more proof that you are only that, smart.

        And speaking from emotion, anyone can be smart, but it takes a bigger person to know that it's not only about being smart. You lose complete respect from me, and maybe others, EVERY time you decided to act, for no better words, a jerk. And you aren't excused. You've said in your own home node that you are a bit of a jerk. A better person would minimally try to rectify that, and not just continue. I equate you to a human with autism. Idiot savant. Someone who is vertically intelligent. Austic even. And to compare you to an autistic person is an insult to them more than anything else as they can't help benig the way they are. You on the other hand, could have (I assumed), but decided to go the other route.

        Update: Added extra sentence in italics.

        ----
        Then B.I. said, "Hov' remind yourself nobody built like you, you designed yourself"

          A reply falls below the community's threshold of quality. You may see it by logging in.
      "their attitudes could easily deter people from persuing perlmonks, perl, programming, or some combination of the three.

      Hm... perlmonks, might be; perl and programming, absolutely not. This is just one of many web sites you can ask questions, and most of the people don't take this site as home, but rather a bar where they can go for a talk, asking questions, providing answers if they can.

      Just because being treated rudely by someone on some web site, one will stop programming? That is too dramatic. The power of rudeness is being over-estimated, and yet the nerve of a normal human being has been under-estimated.

      I actually even doute the perl monk part. If someone being rude at you, you will never visit their home again, but this is really not anyone's home, vitually nobody owns it, yet it is owned by everyone. Put it in this way, will you move out from your own home, just because someone came and said something rude to you? very unlikely! The same thing here, as this is your home, not someone else's.

        Who are these 'most' you speak of? Quite honestly, if most of the people I see here day after day also frequent other sites as much as here, then Im very impressed with their multi-tasking abilities. Or maybe they never sleep?

        For the record, PM is plenty for me, help, home, friends, casual chat. Who needs more?

        C.

        Just because being treated rudely by someone on some web site, one will stop programming? That is too dramatic. The power of rudeness is being over-estimated, and yet the nerve of a normal human being has been under-estimated.
        Let's not start making analogies. It's easy to associate two things, but we'll get muddled in the details of where they relate or not. For someone like me, I'm relaxed. If someone tries to write something, and it turns out to be dangerous, I would simply warn people and be factual about it. And if it was a good try in ernest, try to get them to learn a bit more than usual. If you look at some people's responses, you get some harsh responses. Example: "your code sucks." And it's not by some n00b. Having someone with some sorta sway in the community telling you your code isn't worht a damn, or "sucks", is very disheartening. I rememebr when learning to do something once in /my/ life, and though it doesn't particularly haunt me, I do remember, and have become self conscious about that something.

        ----
        Then B.I. said, "Hov' remind yourself nobody built like you, you designed yourself"

Re^2: Not Again ... *sighs*
by Anonymous Monk on Sep 27, 2004 at 07:35 UTC
    And when they're wrong, they can't admit it

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