There's nothing quite as frustrating as sitting in front of the computer, with inadequate documentation, and no other help in reach, when one is learning something new. (Peopleo may boo me, but its the reason I would reccommend Windows to anyone completely new to computers who wants to get started, its just a lot easier to find people who know at least something about it next door, at the pub, at school, whereever. Unless one is in an environment (like school/uni) where there are large amounts of people knowledgable about linux/mac/whatever else)..

waffle.. waffle..

C.

If I'd have thought some before posting, I might not have bothered posting this.. Maybe if you had too..

Why poo-poo a good suggestion like this?

I'm poo-pooing the reasoning, not the suggestion.

Note the 'when learning', once GUIs are understood in general, then one can apply the knowledge to others to try them out.

Well, yes, but how many Tk users really understand GUIs? I usually find Tk/Gtk programs hard to use. The funny thing is that that has nothing at all to do with the toolkits themselves. It has to do with the coders, and the newbie level they start in and unfortunately often forever stay in. First learn about designing (ne coding) GUIs, then assess several toolkits and choose the one that meets what you need. Do not without thinking for yourself decide to use what everyone else uses, because the majority generally tends to choose the inferior technique, but more importantly: you are not everyone else.

There are numerous good reasons for (not) using this thing. But "because you can get a lot of help" isn't one of them. (And, ehm, the help you can get is mostly (note: not entirely!) from other beginners...)

There's nothing quite as frustrating as sitting in front of the computer, with inadequate documentation, and no other help in reach, when one is learning something new.

This is true. But would you say the documentation of said toolkit is adequate, for a *Perl* coder, let alone a *beginning* Perl coder?

Peopleo may boo me, but its the reason I would reccommend Windows to anyone completely new to computers who wants to get started

Boo! (Hey, you asked for it :))

Juerd # { site => 'juerd.nl', plp_site => 'plp.juerd.nl', do_not_use => 'spamtrap' }

I suppose we should tell the OP to dump Perl too, since Python is "more advanced" in it's design? Perl still stands strong, because it makes things easy to do, as does Tk.

....Tk is solid, active, and moving forward day by day, just like Perl.

How many times have you seen this same question asked before, only to see a post a few weeks later, saying the poster decided to go with Tk because it was easier and faster to do?

If he was a "top-notch programmer" like you, he wouldn't be asking this question here.

Hah - do you think the more advanced coders never ask for help or advice?

To compare using Tk to using Windows,Qwerty, and PhP; shows a bit of ignorance on your part.

It would, but I didn't compare Tk to Win, QWE, PHP. I thought the reasoning was flawed (quoted text, not thread, provides context) and mentioned some things that are used for the same reason. (Which by the way does not mean I do not think Tk sucks.)

I suppose we should tell the OP to dump Perl too, since Python is "more advanced" in it's design? Perl still stands strong, because it makes things easy to do, as does Tk.

If Perl is the inferior technique, yes, I do think we should advice against using it. But it is not, and Python has syntax that stands in the way of trying out their nice design (for me, at least). Besides, I stress again that I did not say the suggestion of using Tk was a bad one. Doing something because other people do it, isn't a good reason (even though most humans do mindlessly follow the flock).

....Tk is solid, active, and moving forward day by day, just like Perl.

It is indeed. I never said it was not. Do not put words in my mouth.

Juerd # { site => 'juerd.nl', plp_site => 'plp.juerd.nl', do_not_use => 'spamtrap' }

Actually I think you are totally out with regard to keyboards. Especially if you are a professional programmer and don't have specific medical reasons for avoiding Qwerty keyboards. The advantage of being able to use any machine at close to your normal typing speed is pretty clear. Sure Qwerty sucks, sure its designed to slow your typing down, but its the most common keyboard layout by far and if you cant type at touch-typing speeds on one then you are at a competitive disadvantage if you move from job to job. Many establishments have rules prohibiting the use of non-standard equipement so bringing your own wont really help.

I speak with a bit of expeience with this as I normally type on a UK layout keyboard, but I live in Germany where the layout is different, I used to even have a US keboard at home and UK at work but that just made things worse. I mistyped so often it wasnt funny. So now ive standardized on the UK layout. This puts me at a disadvantage when I use a colleagues machine or help someone out on their box. I can just imagine how much worse it would be if I didnt use a Qwerty variant.

Incidentally, I find that from an ergonomic POV German keyboards really suck for programming, and suck for programming perl even worse. The fact that all braces/brackets have to be typed with the right hand while the right thumb is pressing the alt-gr key is a total nightmare. It wouldnt suprise me if German coders (and other non-english coders with similar layouts) have above average (compared to english/american coders) levels of stuff like carpel tunnel and RSI.

Spanish and Latin American keyboards also absolutely suck for programming. I always use the US layout when programming or using the command line, even if the keyboard physically has the Spanish layout. I don't look at the keys anyway. Same as in German (I assume), the problem is that all the special symbols end up as inaccessible key combinations in order to make room for the other characters and accents of the language.

The advantage of being able to use any machine at close to your normal typing speed is pretty clear.

Many Dvorak typists type QWERTY at high speed, but not without looking at the keys. Most QWERTY keyboards have the advantage of having the symbols printed on the keys :)

For those who switch computers all the time, and use more than just a few boxes, Dvorak is annoying. But if you, like me, use your own box for more than 90% of the time, consider this: 90% comfort versus 100% discomfort.

By the way, KDE and Windows make switching between two layouts very easy. Sysadmins really have no good reason for disallowing Dvorak.

Especially if you are a professional programmer and don't have specific medical reasons for avoiding Qwerty keyboards.

Your statement is very dangerous and I hope you will take it back. It is very important to do everything to AVOID those medical reasons. I had one year of sitting at home, doing nothing (hands are needed for almost everything), having huge medical bills and no income. Dvorak is free and easy to learn (With http://www.dvorak.nl/, you can learn to touch type Dvorak in less than 10 hours), and I think everyone who uses "I don't have RSI yet" as an excuse to not have to go through the learning phase is a stupid idiot and *deserves* the pain thousands of others have already experienced.

... then you are at a competitive disadvantage if you move from job to job.

I will not ever work full time for someone who forces me to use QWERTY. Employers who do not respect health will have to search harder for people. More and more people demand healthy work places, and it won't be long before employers can get only the worst of coders to work for them.

I can just imagine how much worse it would be if I didnt use a Qwerty variant.

Your imagination is fooling you. QWERTY and QWERTY and QWERTY and QWERTZ and AZERTY are very similar, which makes switching hard. Dvorak is different enough to make switching and knowing you're using the wrong layout much easier.

Juerd # { site => 'juerd.nl', plp_site => 'plp.juerd.nl', do_not_use => 'spamtrap' }