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in reply to Re: Re: C++, C# or Java
in thread C++, C# or Java
all good info, but to be fair to my much despised java, 1.5 is finally adding generics (and foreach loopage).
My "copied Java" statement is true at face value. C++, Java, and C# all follow the same basic syntax and paradigm. I'm glad to see casting made cleaner, and exceptions paired down. Casting in java is painful. Yet, it is a rip off -- I was present at several early Microsoft C# dog-and-pony shows, and the similarities were very clear. The reps couldn't even break out a "why this is better than Java" line ONCE -- and when CLR came up, the best they had was "some group in Poland is trying to make C#" work. They don't care -- they just embrace and extend as usual.
However my chief beef with them, and this still remains, is they have zero interest in anything but Windows, and the Mono folks are doing their best to clone something they really don't like (Windows Forms), so we're looking at what....GTK for Mono as alternatives? Microshaft isn't going to let that fly.
I suppose if you are on a Windows platform, it's probably better than Java (no doubt, hard to be worse) and it may make due if it's still as powerful as C at lower levels, but you still...ultimately...have a language that should have been compiled down to exe (no runtime) and should not be MS specific.
How is the API? You still bound to MSDN hell? That's another big issue with Microsoft. Inconsistant API's that actually make the inconsistancies (which are many) in Java look tame. Sometimes they take Unicode, sometimes they take UTF-8, always clashing on types... The Windows SDK and DDK are pure evil. How clean are sockets? memory mapped files? authentication? Have these been cleaned up at all from the DDK and SDK? Probably not.
And our poster is still looking for a good employer language. C# ain't there yet, except in the early adopter type of shops (which, IMHO, are the suicidal shops).
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Re: Re: Re: Re: C++, C# or Java
by tilly (Archbishop) on Apr 03, 2004 at 06:04 UTC
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Bruce Eckel at least thinks that Java's generics may not be such a good idea. article 1, and article 2 give some specifics. | [reply] |
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It is well known what how C++ templates can screw around with debugging and code maintainability. I'm not a big fan of Bruce. He often states the obvious and thinks he invented it. I was just giving a few examples of java *finally* starting to address language deficiencies, but I think they are doing it in a poor way. Checked exceptions are still a royal PITA too -- lots of little nit-picking things here and there add up in the long run.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: C++, C# or Java
by stvn (Monsignor) on Apr 03, 2004 at 01:17 UTC
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java, 1.5 is finally adding generics
Yes, I heard about that, FWIW C# 2.0 plans to have generics as well, along with (from what i have seen) true anonymous methods, iterators and partial classes (maybe like Eiffel's deffered classes, I am not 100% sure I still have stuff on my "to be read" list about this).
However my chief beef with them, and this still remains, is they have zero interest in anything but Windows
Well, can't argue with that, but are you aware of Rotor? It runs on BSD and Mac OS X, granted I tried it early on and opted instead for Mono, but it at least shows M$ cares ;-P
and the Mono folks are doing their best to clone something they really don't like
Not being a Mono folk, I cannot really speak for them, but I get the impression they actually do like it.
I suppose if you are on a Windows platform, it's probably better than Java (no doubt, hard to be worse)
I'm on Mac OS X,.. and I like it better than Java ;-) but i clearly have some issues, so dont take my word for it.
How is the API?
A lot better than the old Win SDK (although my experience with that is very limited), from what I understand though, alot of what was so bad about it before was that it was never really "designed", but instead just clobbered together over the years.
The C# class libraries are very similar to Java, but being not so strict/purist about OO there are some places where it is alot cleaner. On some level they are very much the same since they provide alot of the same basic services.
And our poster is still looking for a good employer language. C# ain't there yet, except in the early adopter type of shops (which, IMHO, are the suicidal shops).
I disagree, my boss has been finding more and more demand for it out there, which was one of the reasons I learned it, so we can get some of that work. We are consultants, so we have to flow along with the trends a lot. It has actually been out for quite a while too, I have BETA release discs going back several years, so its not really early adopter territory.
And again, no matter what you think about the evil that is M$, the C# and the CLR are pretty well designed and throught out concepts, really not too different that the Perl6/Parrot stuff if you really think about it. But anyway that discussion is for another node.
-stvn
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