Frankly, I don't see the big difference between "shit" and "s**t"; everyone knows that s**t means shit, so what's the point? the word is there, so I don't know which is more offending, is it the letters? or the meaning?

And besides, you can never filter text, there will always be a million way to circumvent that:

5hit
Sh;t      
shi+ 
.
.
.

        __     __ __   
.-----.|  |--.|__|  |_ 
|__ --||     ||  |   _|
|_____||__|__||__|____|

or even

      ___           ___                       ___     
     /\  \         /\__\          ___        /\  \    
    /::\  \       /:/  /         /\  \       \:\  \   
   /:/\ \  \     /:/__/          \:\  \       \:\  \  
  _\:\~\ \  \   /::\  \ ___      /::\__\      /::\  \ 
 /\ \:\ \ \__\ /:/\:\  /\__\  __/:/\/__/     /:/\:\__\
 \:\ \:\ \/__/ \/__\:\/:/  / /\/:/  /       /:/  \/__/
  \:\ \:\__\        \::/  /  \::/__/       /:/  /     
   \:\/:/  /        /:/  /    \:\__\       \/__/      
    \::/  /        /:/  /      \/__/                  
     \/__/         \/__/
[download]

(didn't log in / read the whole thread, sorry...)

Not only can people circumvent that, but when whole words are censored out, meaning is lost. I.e. you knew that they swore, but not what they said, which is a pain in the @$$. :)

Therefore, if we do censor, and someone trips the security, I would prefer that it says, "User: CENSORED" instead of their partial message.

If we make it site policy to avoid profanity, we could allow admins to ban people from posting in the CB for certain lengths of time (don't we already have this, and call it muzzling or something like that?).

I've been on PM quite a bit, recently, and I haven't seen any problems with profanity (used occassionally but not too much of a problem). Also, kids hear stuff at school at pretty early ages that matches up to anything here.

f we make it site policy to avoid profanity, we could allow admins to ban people from posting in the CB for certain lengths of time (don't we already have this, and call it muzzling or something like that?).

Yes to the former. See the Borg's Belly.

Hey, nice art work.

oh, that's not mine (should have credited.)

ASCII art from ASCII Generator, followed link from crazyinsomniac's homenode.

---

He who asks will be a fool for five minutes, but he who doesn't ask will remain a fool for life.

Chady | http://chady.net/

tye has made a good point that everyone should cooperate to keep the language used here professional, but unless we start seeing profanity everywhere, we don't need to discuss a "solution" because the "problem" does not really exist. Telling people not to curse on the CB seems to work just fine; it's not like it happens all the time. The worry is more that people who visit the Monastery from workplaces that have filtering installed will no longer be able to participate in our community.

People who are that sensitive should either install a filtering proxy, or unplug all their electronic devices and stay at home. As far as I'm concerned, the only kind of language that offends be is language that tries to steal others' dignity---and that kind of language does not have to include any of the words you (used to) get fined for when you use them on the radio:

He's a complete imbecile who probably needs help to tie his shoes in the morning. What a pathetic waste of genetic material!

In sum, what one person considers unacceptable can be perfectly normal and even de rigeur for someone else. As long as cursing is kept at a low level, there is no need to institute any kind of "solution" at the community level.

• Front Paging Profanity
• Profanity in the monastery
• Podmaster's Obscene Signature
• Let's discuss Podmaster's Signature

/me ponders adding a more explicit gem from Acme::MJD to his signature

This is becoming as irritating as XP discussions :(

Agreed. I'm relatively new to PM, but I'm here for the Perl, not for the soap operas. Swear all you want as long as the Perl is accurate. But maybe that's just me...

- jbWare

You know what is more irritating that this and XP discussions...

When a monk does say "shit" in a node/cb and another monks tells them to watch their language. I find that far more irritating than a discussion to try and offer a solution.

-----
Of all the things I've lost in my life, its my mind I miss the most.

Hey, watch your language *tsk*tsk* :|

MJD says "you can't just make shit up and expect the computer to know what you mean, retardo!"

I run a Win32 PPM repository for perl 5.6.x and 5.8.x -- I take requests (README).

** The third rule of perl club is a statement of fact: pod is sexy.

Update: Het kan me geen reet schelen of iemand vloekt. (I could not care less about cussing).

U2: When the profanity is meant offensive, but someone does not understand it, it still is offensive. But being offended is still in the mind of the offended. I'm an atheist, and when I say no god exists, and some christian or muslim is offended by that, it does say more about the christian or muslim than about me: does that christian or muslim have a firm believe or am I a horrible person... Same with profanity.

I think we need a follow up on the MTV action "Free your mind!":

Clean your mind!

;-)

All suggestions of course done in the best possible taste and at the greatest expense!

;-)

Liz

You make a valid point - However if the word is unknown to you could you find it offensive? I am not sure what people would think of this.

I think that dws's suggestion about a proxy here at Re: Profanity in the monastery would suite best and one would have to manage a list of words they found offensive in their own proxy.

Update: Not every newbie has the ability to find and customise a proxy written in perl to perform this filtering for them.. hence the idea which in retrospect is probably not feasible to maintain centerally any way.

-----
Of all the things I've lost in my life, its my mind I miss the most.

I was in the Netherlands the other week and I was faintly amused to see the word kunt used in public places. I chuckled to myself because of course the "similar word" in English is still one of those words that will get bleeped on late night TV. As far as I could work out, it means could or can (real translation appreciated) and as such is a fairly vital part of the Dutch language.

I don't think that there is much of a 'profanity' problem in the monestary because basically we are all nice people who focus on Perl issues and the consideration / editorial system deals with any serious issues.

If anyone would like to consider/edit this post then please /msg me to explain why. Thanks!

First off: I deal with enough "political correctness" every day with people telling me what is appropriate to say and what isn't. Most of the time I ignore them. Sometimes I tell them flat out "LOOK! I defended your right to free speech don't infringe on mine!"

Secondly, I find the incidence of profanity sufficiently low here at the Monastery that I don't think it is a problem.

What is profanity anyway? From what I understand the word "bloody" is enough to get your face slapped in some circles. Over here in the U.S.A. use of that word would go unnoticed.

Other words when typed are innocent enough until you speak them out loud and then they sound like cuss words in American (and sometimes English too!) :-) An example is the word "Phrik" which is the Tai word for "chili sauce" IIRC.

If in the right context I type F*** everyone knows what I'm saying and IMHO it is the equivilant of "bleeping" the way they do on TV here in the U.S.A. which is a practice OBTW that started off being controlled by censors and is now more or less voluntary. (complicated issue we don't need to go into detail on here).

My wife tends to be sensitive to profanity. The only person she has ever told to tone it down is me! Mostly because she doesn't want our son to pick up on my colorful sailor-like language. As if that is going to do any good.

I choose to not engage in profanity when on PM and CB. There is a part of me that goes back to my days on the CB (Citezens' Band or Chicken Band as us "old timers" tend to call it) Radio back before it became popular. Profanity was frowned upon back in those days and besides the threat of the FCC coming down on you CB used to be self policing.

Nowadays every other word is the "F-word" and I have given up on CB. So with that in mind I certainly don't want to see that happen here at PM.

But then that is why we have he who guards against balshphemers around.

Controls on language here at PM? I don't think we need them. Come on, we are all adults here. We don't need a nanny...

UPDATED:fixed a coupld of typos.

I am amazed at this thread.

I personally rather not see the profanity, just as I rather not hear it. Most of the time the people that use it aren't worth hearing from my experience, and that includes myself when I do it.

I do have to note though that you made the classic mistake of thinking profanity is protected under "freedom of speech". It most certainly is not.

Freedom of speech is just the right to speak, not to speak in an offensive way if you wish. Society has every right to establish standards of behavior, and doing so, no matter how much you might hate it, does not violate your right to free speech.

But what the hell, carry on!

Society has every right to establish standards of behavior, and doing so, no matter how much you might hate it, does not violate your right to free speech.

Bullshit. (Just exercising my right to free speech).

I'm not joking here, I have the opinion that ideas like the one I quote hurt society - they are the first step to an absolute form of government. One should be extremely careful when preventing form of speech. Regardless whether you call it "standards of behaviour", "national security", "terrorism" or "unpattriotic" - just don't prevent people from using certain words.

But this has nothing to do with Perl anymore, so let's stop here or continue on a more appropriate forum.

Abigail

I do have to note though that you made the classic mistake of thinking profanity is protected under "freedom of speech". It most certainly is not.

The comment I made did not limit itself to profanity per se. There are lots of folks out there who would love to tell me what I an and cannot say in general. That more than limiting my "right" to use profanity is what I object to. In "polite society" use of profanity is considered at best crude. Certainly the day there was an irate customer at a McDonalds using language in fromt of children that burned the ears of this sailor I objected to the use of that sort of language. My solution was to politely ask the individual to tone it down and reminded him there were children present. Did I violate his freedom of speech? No. I gave him the option. Had he persisted I'm not 100% sure what I would have done since this event occured when I was much younger and more brash.

An example of someone violationg my freedom of expression? How about the day that I had a supervisor yell at me for using the title "girl" when talking to one of my female co-workers. Out of context I know there is a concept that she is a "woman" and not a girl and some ladies take offense to being called a girl just as some men would take offense to being called a boy. In fact the term "boy" can be construed as someting even more offensive than "pre adult male".

Putting my remark to my coworker in cntext the phrase I used was something on the order of "you go girl!" (not the exact phrase... I don't remember but that was the order of the phrase.) Now keep in mind two things:

1. She had no objection to being called "girl" in that particular context
2. Where we are both from originally there is a cultural use of the word "girl" that is used amongst peers like the word "buddy" is used.
Society has every right to establish standards of behavior, and doing so, no matter how much you might hate it, does not violate your right to free speech.
Bovine Scatology!
Who is to be the judge of what is objectionable speech and what isn't? What is to stop well meaning but misguided folks from adding to the "objectinable words" list from their own prudishness and/or ignorance?

Classic "war story" here. A certain large telecommunications firm that I worked for decided to have mandatory use of proxies for all web browsing. The proxies were set up to block sites that had "objectionable content." If a page had certain keywords in the content the page would be blocked. One day there was a special on-line forum concerning women's issues going on and the proxies blocked people from participating. Why? Because the page had the word "breast" in it as in breast cancer. I am not exagerating. You can't make stuff like that up.

When was the last time you saw "society" take action against the use of foul language in music, TV programming or for that matter the movies? In fact I have heard mainstream commentators applaud young artists for song lyrics that were nothing short of being gutter talk. Watch "The Soparnos" sometime and try counting the number of times "The F-Word" is used in one episode. You won't be able to keep up. Commedias these days seem to think they aren't funny unless they spice up their language. My favorite comedian, Red Skelton, I don't think every cussed but he could get even the raciest concept across by leading your imagination to it.

I say all that to say this: objectionability of word useage varies with context, the audience and environment. There is the "N-Word" which I personally don't use but in certain contexts is not objectionable. Between African Americans it is used all the time. Don't use it if you aren't African American on someone who is unless you want a fight on your hands (and in my opinion rightfully so.)

Someone uses speech that is objectionable? Ask them to stop. If they persist ignore them and remove yourself from the situation.

I worked for a Chief Petty Officer when I was in the US Navy who had a penchant for chewing someone out to the point they felt small enough to walk out the door without opening it. The felt like they fit right under it. The Chief never raised his voice and never used language that you couldn't use in church yet his command of language and vocabulary was just that good. My favorite boss in the Navy...

I'll quit ranting now...

---

Peter L. Berghold -- Unix Professional Peter at Berghold dot Net
	Dog trainer, dog agility exhibitor, brewer of fine Belgian style ales. Happiness is a warm, tired, contented dog curled up at your side and a good Belgian ale in your chalice.

I just upvoted your node, because I knew for sure that it had a reputation below zero... but I don't agree with you. I have a question: what do you do when you hear a profanity in your real life? Why do you want an automatic sanction? It remembers me Sylvester Stallone in Demolition Man when he sweared at the "sanction machine" to obtain enough paper to be used as toilet paper...

First of all, I quite enjoy Prophanity, but that may be completely off-topic ;)

Secondly, I just can't grasp the fact that people are truely offended when reading "shit" or whatever FCC-banned-word. Maybe my mind is too simplistic to grasp this, but I personally don't care much for/get offended by what people say. Yet what does annoy me beyond belief is the censorship. Entire tv-shows, songs on the radio get "raped" by the beeps and slick inserted silences. And what does it solve? Would you be happier to read "Shut the ... up" instead of "Shut the fuck up"? Anyone with half a brain knows what word will fit the blank.

I might be reading the wrong nodes, but I don't even see these words much over here at PM. Besides that, the world ain't perfect. It's a way of speech, which you might censor, but will not take away. I even think you encourage some to use more of these words in different styles (like "What the fsck?") just to bypass the filtering.

I for one do not like profanity, do not ask me why as it is a complicated, and painful, issue involving family.

As for the nodes, I have seen little amounts of cursing here, and that which was insulting, as in "making fun of fellow monk", which is unacceptable in almost any form, was quickly taken care of.

If someone's profanity is bothering you in the CB /msg that monk asking him/her, politely, to stop. If that doesn't work ignore that monk.

Update: Thanks allolex, yes I mean /ignore monk, Chatterbox FAQ for more info.

I assume you mean "ignore that monk" as in /ignore monk in the CB. A lot of monks probably don't even know about that feature. :)

--
Allolex

However, if some-one should choose NOT to want to see such profanities, should we not allow them that priveledge?

What would the community feel about a filter that when you clicked the "create" button for a node or the "Talk" button for the CB the text was piped through a filter which replaced some letters of the offending word? This functionality could be switched "ON" in the user settings, but would be off by default. (e.g. s/shit/s**t/) etc.

Abigail

Make sure it includes the words I find offensive: god

Dear Valued Member of the Perlmonks Community:

For technical reasons, we are unable to comply with your request to filter these words, since it would interfere with certain functionality of our site. Please understand that this is a purely technical consideration and does not constitute an explicit lack of agreement with your perspective on this matter, but we are unable to accommodate you in this way at this time.

---

$;=sub{$/};@;=map{my($a,$b)=($_,$;);$;=sub{$a.$b->()}}
split//,".rekcah lreP rehtona tsuJ";$\=$ ;->();print$/
[download]

Profanity is the crutch of inarticulate motherfuckers.

:)
Matt

Whatever one does, whatever technological means are deployed, some profanity, obscenity, ... will creep through.

For some it will be a challenge to defeat the filters and other methods to censor them.

Therefore I suggest that a new section of the Monastery is opened called "Perl Profanity" (could be a twin brother of Perl Poetry), where you can swear to your heart's delight and where you can go to be offended and hurt if that makes your day.

I even offer the content of a first node:

Stercum                 
Flocci non facio
tua mater       
Dormi mecum     
Tu es stultior quam asinus 
cunnus   
irrumator
leno     
mentula  
meretrix 
spucatum tauri 
pudor tu
[download]

In If it ain't broke, don't fix it blue_cowdawg said, "XP is probably the least important facet of PM to me anyway." To me, the least important facet of PM is profanity. Everyone is dull and repetitive in the use of profanity. The lack of creative is truly tragic:).

What is important, to me, about Perl Monks is Perl. I already know how to curse (uncreatively). I don't need lessons or practice. I need lessons and practice in Perl. I need to read Perl, to write Perl and to discuss Perl. Profanity is getting in the way because some of the people I need to discuss Perl with are discussing profanity. If we can get away from posts about profanity, irritated replies to posts about profanity, 'yes I think so too' posts about profanity and irritated replies to all of the above it would be a good thing.

So if we can give those monks that are concerned about profanity a way to turn it off (and that would satisfy them, which is doubtful) then do it and let's go back to Perl. If giving people a choice about profanity doesn't work, doesn't satisfy those who care or if giving a choice can't be done; how about we move on anyway?

Leave profanity to experts like George Carlin and go back to the expertise of the Perl Monks.

xenchu

If you consider this to be an attempt to grow Perlmonks, it is afterall a "New Discussion" topic, which generally deals with issues about Perlmonks. Why don't you turn this into a Perlmonk exercise and build the filter, or write the proxy.

I for one would like to be able to use such a proxy at home but still lack the ability to write the code myself. It might even be an interesting project, and it may prove useful to other monks.

I wish I could write the filter. Alas, I lack both the knowledge and the privilege on PM to do that. That's why I feel discussions of profanity aren't going to get us(well, me at least) very far.

Have you noticed that no one seems to change their mind as a result of discussions about profanity? That PodMaster doesn't change his sig? That someone always brings the subject up again? Discussion is supposed to make everyone's opinion clear to everyone else. Is anyone unclear about anyone's opinion about profanity? How does this help PerlMonks grow if it changes nothing? A discussion of whether giving monks a choice of filtering profanity or not would end this type of discussion might do a bit of good. I somehow doubt that though.

I learned profanity in elementary school. By the time I was a teenager I had all the advanced degrees. The subject does not interest me, it is boring in fact. Perl is what interests me. As I said before, profanity is getting in the way.

xenchu

---

The Needs of the World and my Talents run parallel to infinity.

Why is profanity used?
Generally for shock value (no shock, no value)

What is much more gratifying is that there are so many ways to express unhappiness/ displeasure that not only grab ones attention, but are clever enough to allow the humor/pain of the situation to be realized (yes, humor and pain are closely related).

The great thing about Perl Monks is that there are so many highly creative individuals here who can use that creativity to bring Perl alive in ways that may not have been considered before reading their post. While an occasional curse, cuss or profanity pops in, generally it is in a context of humor, and not directed at someone. It can be fun to see how a particular monk will describe a particular shortcoming that has annoyed them for a while, as it has defied them at every turn, until finally the other Monks are consulted and can help out.

As has been listed above in other posts, if I find the Perl Monks to be too obscene for me, or if I find insufficient information and entertainment on the site, I will stop referring the site, and stop visiting. On the other hand, if I find Perl Monks to be too restrictive and unproductive the result will be the same. If enough people use the same voting method eventually you have a site dedicated to something other than the original intent.

I hope that Perl Monks will continue as it has been, with people applying some courtesy for one and other as well as protecting one and other as needed. There have been some nodes clipped for being needlessly insulting (this is a good thing). These have been few and far between (also a good thing) so we can express our ideas without having to be so politically correct in a world wide setting that we spend more time thinking about the phraseology than thetechnology.

Go Perl!

Enjoy,
dageek

With my appologies to those who would like to see this thread die off... Profanity is not always used for shock value. For many people, it is simply part of their vernacular and they have to make a concerted effort not to use it. Most often, it is used for emphasis and IMHO there are some sentiments that can only be expressed using these words.

The real trick here, i think, is to recognize that these profanities are just words and are not usually intended to be offensive to anyone. Obviously, the "N word" at a KKK rally is offensive to most people. "poopy", when uttered by a drooling four-year-old, should be offensive to no one. The list of obscure/foreign curses in the post above, is probably not offensive to those of us that do not understand it. Many intentionally offensive comments do not require the use of profanity.

Those who are never meanin' no harm should not be treated as offenders. Those who feel that this hypothetical filter should be in place should consider the offence that might be taken by the would-be filterees. I have been coming to this site off and on for a while and consider PM to be a highly respectable community. The filter will probably be a good idea when the "Fun Code for Kids!" section of the site opens up, though...

All that being said, it's colder than a penguin's n*tsack in philadelphia... (that is intended to be funny)

-Ariel

Why is profanity used?
Generally for shock value (no shock, no value)

Thank you .. I am reminded of a story about Lenny Bruce getting up on stage one night and repeating the F-word non-stop for ten minutes. Even as long ago as this was, the shock value wore off very quickly.

I am also reminded of my high school pal Randy Reid mimicking a fresh new grade 8 student (we were lordly grade 11 students at the time) who alternated the F-word with ordinary words in a sentence to prove how 'tough' they were. I laughed so hard I couldn't speak.

I consider Perl Monks to be a professional Perl salon; unless it's in context (like someone quoting MJD in their .sig), profanity is not used, because I think we're all brighter than that.

Alex / talexb / Toronto

Life is short: get busy!

What would be pretty cool would be to have a filter that when ever is saw the word "shit" it would replace it with the word "crap". Crap may not be expectable either but it is better then the alternative.

Who do you think is naieve enough to be fooled by a filter that replaces 'shit' with 'crap'? It neither changes the meaning nor the intent of the author. It would only fool a reader who isn't proficient enough to read a sentence and get a meaning out of the sequence of words - only someone who reads word-by-word without consulting the context might be fooled. But such a person would get upset about 'crap' as well. A more neutral replacement, 'humming bird' for instance, could do the trick.

Abigail

The whole idea of a filter is not to change the meaning of the sentence or to fool the reader in anyway but to make it more exceptable for all readers. A more neutral word could be used but, it also could be more obvious to the reader that profanity was used.