In large measure I would have to agree! BUT where else do you see a community like PM? I have looked and I haven't foundone. If we branch it off and make some rules for it - like say no SORW on the Front Page, no anonymous sign-in the user must be a registered Monk, even limit the archive life of SPRW questions - make it a side room in the cloisters if you will. Would it make all that much difference to have one more choice in the navigation block?

I know this one will be contentious. And maybe keeping the monastery pure would be a better way. But the suggestion is out there now, as I am sure it has been before and will be again, so let's at least see where it goes.

I understand your concern about integrating Usenet into the monastery and I did not make myself clear originally that I would never advocate that. If something like this were to be done it would get my support if it were limited, controlled and hidden away in the corner where the inferior grade coffee is served!

jdtoronto

I have to agree with Randal wrt OT posts. IMHO I think the reason PM is successful is because of some of the very things you wish to change. For example, the OT stuff is generally weeded out and the folks who are not serious about Perl in general tend to leave since they don't get fame by posting trash. (See Slashdot for examples of this kind of thing :-)

If something dubious is posted to the front page for example, it can be quickly removed (e.g. voted out of existance). Notice that OT stuff is still allowed -- just discouraged in general unless the "community" thinks it's worthy. If you peruse Slashdot, you have to take the good articles with the bad and you have to surf at a high enough level to avoid all of the trash since a large number of bottom feeders there are quite vocal -- even ones with monikers.

As for Anonymous Monk, I agree that folks should pick a moniker, but not so they are somehow showing backbone, but so that their messages can be attributed to a common source (i.e. If I'm short on time, I focus reading messages from folks with a low SNL ratio.) If they don't want a message to be attributed to them, what do I care -- they could just pick another random moniker and login and post with that.

bluto

If something dubious is posted to the front page for example, it can be quickly removed (e.g. voted out of existance). Notice that OT stuff is still allowed -- just discouraged in general unless the "community" thinks it's worthy.

I don't agree with this, it's too much "let the market decide" in economic terms. Your suggestion would mean that if I rally enough people interested in collecting miniature kobolds to come here, we could discuss collecting miniature kobolds on perlmonks, and even vote off any Perl related articles from the front page.

Abigail

BUT where else do you see a community like PM?

Oh, please. Thank god, nowhere else. To tell you a secret, a lot of Perl people absolutely hate PM because of this so-called "PM community". They are seen as pompous pricks (and that's one of the less insulting terms I've heard), who aren't much better than the slashdot crowd. And each time I see posts like this, gloating about the nirvana of "the perlmonk community", I've to agree with them.

I post here. But I'm not part of a "PM community". I don't like being called a Perlmonk. I only post here because I like to talk about Perl. But I don't consider PM to be anything else than Usenet with the poorest and slowest interface I've ever seen.

Abigail
--
How long will it take before this is in the worst nodes of the week?

Well you can "Oh please" all you like! BTW welcome to the discussion, I sure hope that neither of your posts here makes it to 'worst post'.

Maybe I am old enough that I remember the 60's too well, despite the adminition that if you can remember the 60's you weren't really there.

PM has a feel of community about it. We all have a common interest, some have a common cause, we certainly have a social commonality about us when you read the CB for any length of time. OK, thats too 'touchy feely' for you, no problem, I can understand that. I use the trerm 'community' becuase as soon as I became familiar with the monastery I found it a very comfortable place to be. Why? Because I am not surrounded by fourteen year old script-kiddy apostles for the God of PHP. Call me agist and elitist if you want! But many other places I find that the inhabitants expect as soon as you are talking CGI or Web Services that you are talking PHP.

To be honest, I don't find the monastery at all pompous. If you have a genuine and well researched question you will get a darned good answer here, something which sadly cannot be said of Usenet. And to be honest I can't remember when I started using Usenet, but it would have to be at latest th early 80's. The last thing I think I wouild wish to see is the Monastery become anything like the Usenet of today.

As for the slow interface, well how could anyone but agree!

As for slashdot, well, I hope they enjoy it over there. I sure as heck don't. Yet my experience here has been very positive.

jdtoronto

PS: Gee, you made me think back there. When did USENET start? Late 70's would be my recollection. I remember meeting Vint Cerf at a conference at the Univeristy of Sussex in 1973, our connection to ARPANET in those days was via University College in London if I recall. The next big thing I remember must have been the early 80's when there was a huge debate over renaming USENET groups. The Europeans didn't want to pay for the bandwidth to being the 'flaming groups' to Europe! What brave days they were.

...jd

Oh, please. Thank god, nowhere else.

Too bad, there shall be many more.

To tell you a secret, a lot of Perl people absolutely hate PM because of this so-called "PM community"

And a lot of people who read perlmonks absolutely despise these "Perl people" because of their blatant pretentiousness and elistism. Not to mention a great deal of them hardly know anything about Perl or programming for that matter. They often don't frequent discussions because their afraid to show their ignorance.

At least the majority of people that frequent perlmonks are trying to extend their knowledge. I'm tired of these usenet relics coming along and dumping on everything that tries to be something more. Usenet is an obsolete cesspool. Insulting people for trying to create something better doesn't speak well of you.

To extend Randal's metaphor, your actions are like walking into a movie theatre, constantly bitching about how much movies suck and how 1950's TV was so much better, then saying "I only come here because I like the moving pictures."

Abigail, PM does load kind of slow, especially compared to when it was on the old host. However, the interface style and the active populate of Perl junkies here make things a little better than most Usenet groups and other discussion forums.

Your posts have helped me out of a coding jam or two. No matter what you think of the community, or the fact that some people here, like anywhere, put on airs, I'm certainly glad I found your posts here.

I like it here. I think PM is one of the few web forums that doesn't fall into this category.

How long will it take before this is in the worst nodes of the week?

Are you really that petty?

Makeshifts last the longest.

I mostly agree on what you're saying here, but I do think that a section might be welcome, where only remotely perl-related subjects, like zombie processes, security, webservers, and SQL, could be discussed. A place where this post wouldn't be reaped.

Even in an OT section I'd've considered that one for deletion. It wasn't a security related question, the poster was essentially asking how to evade a ban. His being banned means either or both of two things. First, the ops in that channel could be extraordinary jerks. In that case the effort to spite them is really not worth it. Or he is the jerk. In my experience, this is by far the more likely reason. Maybe both are true. Now do the math, then guess what I think of honouring or even tolerating a request such as his.

Makeshifts last the longest.

Yes bart and you leave the way open because I think I considered that one originally.

It is a perfectly valid question, useful even. And I pondered it for a few minutes before I hit submit on it because I thought that maybe someone here would be able to offer this monk some advice. BUT - taking the whole picture into account I think it could have been kept, but in another place. Hence my reason for suggesting an OT section.

jdtoronto