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Re: Re: "There are some stunningly novel ideas in Perl" -- Paul Graham

by Anonymous Monk
on Apr 28, 2003 at 15:58 UTC ( [id://253726]=note: print w/replies, xml ) Need Help??


in reply to Re: "There are some stunningly novel ideas in Perl" -- Paul Graham
in thread "There are some stunningly novel ideas in Perl" -- Paul Graham

Glad to see your update. Now I won't bother to flame you. Instead I will tell you to read the rest of his articles and realize that his claim to hackerdom is several orders of magnitude better than yours.

You might even wind up re-evaluating some of the languages that you casually dismissed above.

Replies are listed 'Best First'.
Re: Re: Re: "There are some stunningly novel ideas in Perl" -- Paul Graham
by demerphq (Chancellor) on Apr 28, 2003 at 16:33 UTC

    I will read the articles. And I may well deserve some heat, if not actual flaming for this node. OTOH, I stand by my comment. Why the hell would ANYONE be suprised that hackers have a thing or two to say about designing programming languages? Why would they be suprised that hackers might come up with some fine ideas? And frankly I only feel more vidicated by the comment by my re-reading of the article. To me it seems that a good chunk of his article is taken up with explaining away why those in academia is falling behind. For instance this

    It's not true that those who can't do, teach (some of the best hackers I know are professors), but it is true that there are a lot of things that those who teach can't do. Research imposes constraining caste restrictions. In any academic field there are topics that are ok to work on and others that aren't. Unfortunately the distinction between acceptable and forbidden topics is usually based on how intellectual the work sounds when described in research papers, rather than how important it is for getting good results. The extreme case is probably literature; people studying literature rarely say anything that would be of the slightest use to those producing it.

    seems to be me to be an attempt to explain why those poor academics are getting outclassed by a bunch of ragtags coding in their basements for glory and not money. Its all because of those horrible 'caste restrictions' and that its more important to write an intellectual paper than it is to write a useful one.

    So If Graham can spend a good chunk of that article explaining why Academia is falling behind The Real World, then I dont feel bad for pointing out the same, and for being less forgiving of it than he is.

    realize that his claim to hackerdom is several orders of magnitude better than yours

    Yes, no doubt. And of course Newton's claim to be a great physicist is several orders of magnitude greater than just about everybody that followed him. Doesn't change the fact that he spent the latter part of his life talking absolute rubbish most of the time. Nor did it mean that those that followed him werent entitled to criticize what he said.

    Im not saying that Graham is doing that (totally talking rubbish), but his past laurels are as irrelevent to the discussion at hand as are your or my own programming skills.

    Oh and do you really think that Ill end up reevaluating some of those languages? Just in case you missed it Ill put up the caveat I included originally. Bolding added however.

    but writing business type apps in a reasonable timeframe for a reasonable budget doesn't seem to be one of them.

    Anyway, heres to posting before you think it through fully, and the results that can occur.... *grin*

    Cheers,


    ---
    demerphq

    <Elian> And I do take a kind of perverse pleasure in having an OO assembly language...
      No, I don't think that you will wind up re-evaluating any of them. It appears that you have your opinion already, and every inconvenient new fact gets slotted in the ordained hierarchy somewhere.

      About your caveat, if you read Beating The Averages you would find out that Dr. Graham has made more money than you are likely to ever make by writing business type apps in a reasonable timeframe for a reasonable budget. Oh, and he did it in one of the languages that you listed as "useless" for exactly that purpose. Care to open up your mouth any wider? We wouldn't want your shins to have trouble following your foot...

      Of course he then went out and explained why he chose it, why it worked, and why you won't see lots of other people following his example. I could talk more about that but the article explains it quite well. And if you won't get it from there, what makes me think that you would get it from an anonymous nobody either?

        It appears that you have your opinion already, and every inconvenient new fact gets slotted in the ordained hierarchy somewhere.

        Really? That may be true. I can't really say. Which inconvenient fact have I slotted into the ordained heirarchy? You should try readin my replies a little closer before you start throwing stones. It seems to me that the one having troubling dealing with issues raised in this discussion is you not me.

        would find out that Dr. Graham has made more money than you are likely to ever make by writing business type apps in a reasonable timeframe for a reasonable budget. Oh, and he did it in one of the languages that you listed as "useless" for exactly that purpose.

        I like your style here. You attack me directly because you disagree with me, even when you havent read what I've written very carefully. And then you go and falsely quote me saying something that I didnt say. Nowhere in my post did I say these langauges are "useless". So, I guess its really me who should be asking "Want some ketchup with that foot?"

        The invective aside, im wondering if you recall what anecdotal evidence is? Hopefully you do, because it seems you like to use it. So Mr. Graham got richer than I ever will be from writing a business app in one of the languages I was critical of. Thats good. Ill buy his book and read it if only to rebut you the next time you show up. :-) But the fact is that what he did one time says absolutely nothing. Im sure theres people who wrote succesfull business apps on time and on budget in assembler even. Doesn't mean that its a common occurance. Doesn't mean that assembler is suitable for mainstream business use. And that was my point: hackers IMO are more likely to provide something like that than an academic.

        Of course he then went out and explained why he chose it, why it worked, and why you won't see lots of other people following his example.

        If when i read the book the reason he provides for why you wont see lots of people following his example is becuase the language is generally unsuitable for it, then I think I shall have to hunt you down and kill you. *grin*

        And if you won't get it from there, what makes me think that you would get it from an anonymous nobody either?

        I listen and debate with everybody. (Review my posting history.) And generally I am a very quick learner. Im not worried about how well I learn, I dont think you should be. You seem to delight in the personal attack. Me I would have done my best to show me the error of my ways. Whatever. Its your choice. And I will read the article.


        ---
        demerphq

        <Elian> And I do take a kind of perverse pleasure in having an OO assembly language...
        by writing business type apps in a reasonable timeframe for a reasonable budget. Oh, and he did it in one of the languages that you listed as "useless" for exactly that purpose.

        I'm not trying to get inbetween the flamethrowers here... Y! Store was written in LISP and gave the company a great advantage but OTOH, they did just move the whole platform over to C and (uncredited Perl).

        -Lee

        "To be civilized is to deny one's nature."
Re: Re: Re: "There are some stunningly novel ideas in Perl" -- Paul Graham
by shotgunefx (Parson) on Apr 28, 2003 at 16:09 UTC
    I agree to a point. We may be too close to the source, but I believe it goes both way. I think Paul has Lisp blinders and that anything not Lisp will always be less than Lisp.

    -Lee

    "To be civilized is to deny one's nature."
      That I will agree on as well. As I once saw someone who knew him comment, he is a big believer that there is my way, and my way is right. :-)
        We've spoken on occasions and it's my impression as well. He's certainly a very intelligent person, but I think nothing would convince him otherwise, but maybe it's just been my experience.

        -Lee

        "To be civilized is to deny one's nature."

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