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Re^2: Multiplication digit persistence

by pryrt (Abbot)
on Mar 28, 2019 at 13:34 UTC ( [id://1231803]=note: print w/replies, xml ) Need Help??


in reply to Re: Multiplication digit persistence
in thread Multiplication digit persistence

The script successfully finds the 15-digit value with 11 steps but I have yet to find a 12 stepper, having run with up to 27-digit values. Output from a 26- and 27-digit run below:-

...

As you can see, the above run finds all the steps up to 11, just with a series of 1s prepended and the whole run took almost 9 hours on a 2012 MacBook Pro 2.3GHz quad core i7. It may be that there are no 12-steppers at all, I don't have the maths to tell,...

It was mentioned in the video, and I am quoting the similar idea from the Wolfram MathWorld Multiplicative Persistence article: "There is no number <10^(233) with multiplicative persistence >11". You're going to have to go a lot higher than 27 digits if you want to find the elusive 12-stepper.

I tried talking the lowest 11-stepper (277777788888899), then permuting its digits, and listing the factors of each of those permutations (keeping the single-digit factors separate, then lumping what's left if it's not), trying to find one or more permutations that is soley made up of single-digit factors -- because if there's a group of only-single-digit factors that make up a 11-stepper, then making a 12-stepper is as simple as concatenating those digits. -- Actually, I remembered that I started with a 10-stepper, because I wanted to see if I could proof-of-concept it to go from the 10-stepper to a known 11-stepper. I only made it about a million permutations through. If I had started with the 11-stepper, that would have been almost enough, because there are only 15! / 6! / 6! / 2! permutations of 277777788888899, which is 1.3million permutations. But since I was using the 10-stepper 4996238671872 => 1223466778899, which has fewer repeating digits, so is 13!/2!/2!/2!/2!/2! = 195million permutations.

Looks like I'll have to find some spare CPU cycles to try the 11-stepper, too.

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Re^3: Multiplication digit persistence
by LanX (Saint) on Mar 28, 2019 at 14:16 UTC
    > Looks like I'll have to find some spare CPU cycles to try the 11-stepper, too.

    But you know that'll fail?

    • The smallest useful digit is 2
    • 2**50 has already more than 15 digits.
    • Any of your permutations will have 15 only.
    • It was said that there's no solution under 200+ digits
    update

    Probably I didn't think it thru, the product of more than 50 digits could contain many 1s acting as fillers in between your targeted 15 digits...

    in other words 1277777788888899 is am eleven stepper too, just not the smallest.

    BTW: For the same reason is 1223466778899 not the smallest 10 stepper.

    Cheers Rolf
    (addicted to the Perl Programming Language :)
    Wikisyntax for the Monastery FootballPerl is like chess, only without the dice

      But you know that'll fail?

      Yes. I believed I was eventually going to have to inject additional 1s into the 11-stepper to generate enough single-digit factors to get at least 233 digits in the 12-stepper. And I knew the chances were that the first 11-stepper, even with 1s, might not ever be able to generate a 12-stepper. Since the conjecture is that there are no 12-steppers -- though there isn't a solid mathematical reason, other than "233 digits wasn't enough for 12-step, when 15 digits was sufficient for 11-step, so it's not likely to have any 12-steppers" -- the chances are small than any amateur (like us me) will find a 12-stepper. (Though mathematics does have some strange outliers, like the Monster Group being so far out there, or the sixth platonic-solid-analog in 4d, when all other dimensions have fewer.)


      update: I am an amateur at mathematics. I should not have spoken for anyone else. Sorry, LanX.

        I have a math degree and know if many cases even nowadays were "amateurs" find good solutions.

        Don't wanna go to much into details but in order to calculate the likelihood of a solution (which is not alien to number theory). You'd need to calculate the density of possible products of single digits numbers in a number range.(easily done with the sieve approach)

        Since the number of 11 step solutions becomes infinite by just adding more 1s it's probably not that unlikely to find a solution with several hundreds or thousands digits.*

        Otherwise you'd need to prove why it's impossible. ( Which could be done by showing that the density becomes 0)

        Cheers Rolf
        (addicted to the Perl Programming Language :)
        Wikisyntax for the Monastery FootballPerl is like chess, only without the dice

        update
        *) or at least prove it's existence.

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