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Re^5: Who is your favorite scientist and why?

by holli (Abbot)
on Dec 13, 2017 at 00:36 UTC ( #1205383=note: print w/replies, xml ) Need Help??


in reply to Re^4: Who is your favorite scientist and why?
in thread Who is your favorite scientist and why?

I find it funny that some people have a problem accepting that something as complex as the universe (as a whole, not only the part we can see) is (most likely) eternal and not magical, yet somehow are fine with the idea something per definition infinitly more complex (god) exists. Or in other words, who created god?

Also this.


holli

You can lead your users to water, but alas, you cannot drown them.

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Re^6: Who is your favorite scientist and why?
by james28909 (Deacon) on Dec 13, 2017 at 16:34 UTC
    the "who created god argument" is always an atheists first argument. because it is their only arguement more or less. :) im agnostic. i only believe in a creator with evidence, which is why i believe in a creator. i do not know who created god, or who created the creator of any god. those questions are far off and i do not think that the way we have evolved to just survive would allow me to even ponder it yet. we are just now coming out of "survival mode" and are figuring out things that were never even dreamed about until very recently in human timescale. i do imagine that in the future (dont know if it is direct or distant) we will be able to explain further. just because we cant explain something does not mean that evolution, or technology, wont advance enough to answer those questions. we are just now starting to really be able to answer these questions that humans have pondered about for years. we are just now, in a human timescale, inventing tools that help us see things that are hidden from our naked eyes. i can only imagine what we will invent in 100 years or 200 years, or 10,000 years ect. just because that me or you cannot explain something now, doesnt mean they wont have that answer after we are dead and gone from this existence.
      i only believe in a creator with evidence, which is why i believe in a creator.
      Ok, but what is this evidence?

        some of the evidences, that leads me to believe that there is a creator, have already been laid out in this thread.

        personal past life experiences are one. the way we progress in knowledge of our surroundings and technology. evolution leads me to believe as well. scientific discoveries... are just some. can you name a scientific discovery that actually disproves a creator? science does not really rip me away from my personal belief, and my personal belief in a creator does not rip me away from science. they do co-exist fine and easily too. the universe was setup with laws and if they were slightly different then i wouldnt be sitting here typing this. for some people it is easy to see, i think it has to do with perception or feelings. i mean i dont know why or who created it, that would be purely, and only, speculation, but i have a solid belief it was created. the main kickers for me are the results from double slit experiment and the quantum eraser.

        what is your beliefs and what is your evidence thats backing that belief?

      How far does the creation process go in your world? Do you believe god handknitted our DNA? Or did HE just come up with a set of laws and let it all play out according to them and is now watching us like a reality show?

      Does HE interfere occassionally, for example by healing the eyesight a middle class scottish woman while taking a break from giving AIDS to african babies?


      holli

      You can lead your users to water, but alas, you cannot drown them.
        with how the quantum world works, i cannot answer that. but, just speculating, if observation or measuring something actually brings it into existence (collapses the wave function), that means at a very fundamental scale, there are things that seem "magical" but we know there is no such thing as magic. so if this is a simulation, and the quantum world is what everything is made of on a macroscopic level and probably larger, whos to say that dna wasnt a prethought up thing that was just a small part of this universe to create/help life? like i said in one of my other posts a while ago, in a universe that is trying to kill life in every way possible, why does life thrive like it is doing? its a good question and one i have not put alot of thought into.
        also, i want to point out you are basing your observations on just humans. think outside the box. literally anything IS possible. but... to sit and speculate about it and try to make out like you know more than someone else, or your way of views id the only right one... just because a baby in africa has aids, well thats pointless. you seem to have a deep seated anger against a god that even you dont believe exists. that is not healthy.
        also to answer your first question, creation happens when the wave function collapses. if you believe we are a simulation, then you understand the double slit experiment, and the point of the quantum eraser. all i can do is speculate. i do not have those answers, noone does. i just know that observation/measurement is what literally creates the world/universe around us, or it atleast seems that way.
Re^6: Who is your favorite scientist and why?
by james28909 (Deacon) on Dec 13, 2017 at 15:36 UTC
    the reason some people have a "problem" with it is because we see evidence that points to the opposite of your views. you, too, see that evidence, but you are convinced everything is just a random string of events happening. if you havent seen the double slit experiment, then you should check it out. also check out the quantum eraser. both of those /SHOULD/ blow your mind (literally). i would also like to say that, atleast for someone like me, i have not ruled out that everything is just random. it just so happens that the evidence stored in my mind leads me to think it is NOT random.
      You evaded the main point of my argument: Who created god? And if HE doesn't need a creator, why would something much simpler than HIM need one?


      holli

      You can lead your users to water, but alas, you cannot drown them.
        please see my other newest post to your statement.
        In these types of discussions, why is it always taken for granted that we're talking about the christian god?
Re^6: Who is your favorite scientist and why?
by james28909 (Deacon) on Dec 13, 2017 at 15:58 UTC
    also, for this universe to be "infinite" it would have to be "magical". to me you have an ass backwards way of thinking at the very core of your beliefs. your only one sided with no room for correction, or so it would seem like that anyway from the comment youve made. and that stance, to me, is the opposite of the over religious scientist, which says "oh thats the work of god, no need to explain any further"... your view is "its all random, and those who try to prove otherwise are funny and idiots", which is the extreme opposite of the overly religious scientist.

    care to give me the evidence that makes you believe the universe is infinite? here is my first counter arguement to start things off: in an infinite universe, there would be no medium for our universe to exist in. with a finite universe, there is plenty room for a medium that our universe can exist efficiently inside of.
      I don't know if the universe is eternal and infinite, or finite but borderless. I canno tell wether it is cyclic or not. Maybe we're just a simulation in someone elses supercomputer. I'm a layman, just like you.

      What I do know is that every mistery ever solved turned out to be not magic or supernatural. I have no reason to believe this trend won't continue.

      But be it as it may, this discussion started with the question of religion and we all agree the jewish christian god is a man made mythology, right? Just like Thor and Krishna or one of the other countless deities in history. Nobody in this forum really believes in talking snakes and a superhuman raiding entire villages with the jawbone of a lion (or was it a goat?). At least I hope so.


      holli

      You can lead your users to water, but alas, you cannot drown them.
        "...just a simulation in someone elses supercomputer..."

        Yep. We need to pay attention not to get fooled.

        «The Crux of the Biscuit is the Apostrophe»

        perl -MCrypt::CBC -E 'say Crypt::CBC->new(-key=>'kgb',-cipher=>"Blowfish")->decrypt_hex($ENV{KARL});'Help

        "and we all agree the jewish christian god is a man made mythology, right? " yes i agree and not is it just the jewish religion of god, its every religion on this planet i dont believe, NONE of them. but i am also agnostic and believe there is a creator, and only because of evidence.
        but if this was indeed a simulation, the evidence is just part of the simulation lol. how can you or me prove that this existence was not created upon my birth, and everything in it is just simulated? we cant prove god does or doesnt exist. i do not think that should be the question at all actually. i think we just need to keep discovering things and eventually our knowledge or physical bodies will evolve enough to let the question answer itself.

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