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Re: (OT) Parking Lot

by mandog (Curate)
on Sep 13, 2001 at 19:19 UTC ( #112216=note: print w/replies, xml ) Need Help??

in reply to Re: Re: (OT) Parking Lot
in thread The World Trade Center Tragedy

I decided to not to reply to gregor42's node stating that retaliation is a simple matter. This is a painful time. Arguing a point sometimes does little more than inflame the passons of the arguers. I woke up this morning to reports of attacks against innocent Muslims and changed my mind.

I do not believe Gregor's metaphor is a fair one. A better metaphor would be to imagine that you live in a neighborhood of abandoned buildings inhabitated by people who have nothing. The large abandoned building next to you has no heat, light or plumbing, but dozens of men, women and children live there. Somebody does you serious injury. You toss a burning bottle of gasoline into the building at 3:00am.

A ruthless, violent response may be what is required. This response should not be unthinking or indescriminate. Obliterting Afgainistan, (if this is even possible) will kill people who have don't even know the WFC exists


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(VERY Off Topic) Parking Lot
by gregor42 (Parson) on Sep 13, 2001 at 19:53 UTC

    I corrected a statement which implied that if a foreign power is harboring known terrorists responsible for known attacks, that there shouldn't be a simple strategy in dealing with them.

    This is an Act of War.

    If that foreign power will not take responsibility for taking control of it's constituents, or worse, shelters them, then they must be held responsible.

    I'm not saying that we need to bomb civilians. We actually possess the technology to avoid that. Because of that, suddenly we're not supposed to fight a war the same way? Carpet bombing was invented because once upon a time we couldn't aim the bombs. Now you can do more dammage with one laser guided 2000Lb bomb than with a dozen unguided ones. Our foes are obviously not in possession of the same degree of control & are most obviously unwilling to use restraint in attacking non-combatants.

    People may find this a difficult thing to swallow, what I'm about to say, but I see the Pentagon as a fair target. Not because I want ANYTHING to be a target, nor did those people deserve to die, or even for anyone to look at them cross-eyed...But, it's a military target. The plane full of civilians not withstanding, that at least adheres to international standards of 'civilized warfare'. (Has there EVER been a bigger oxymoron?) Somebody want to show me where the hidden bunker was below the WTC?

    I agree with you that anti-Moslem sentiment is wrong. But it could also be worse. During WWII we had our own concentration camps in this country, full of Japanese Americans. We're not seeing that today. Somehow I think even the Jewish community would stand up against that today.

    I am very sick & tired of reading post after post written by people with no stomach for war. Face it & suck it up. The world is a scary place. People don't like us. It is a sad state of affairs because our government does things we wouldn't agree with and have no clue about. So do the governments of other countries. If the people could interface without the boundaries & membranes artifically imposed upon us by them, maybe things would be better.... But then again, maybe NOT.

    I'm NOT happy about this & I don't HATE anyone... But obviously we need to respond in kind. Don't put words in my mouth.

    Wait! This isn't a Parachute, this is a Backpack!
      I'm not saying that we need to bomb civilians. We actually possess the technology to avoid that.

      Nonsense, I really think that people who peddle that propaganda about smart weapons, zero-death wars and other insanity should be judged for crime against humanity. I don't say you peddle it, you are just unwittingly propagating it. Terrorists at least have the excuse of fighting for a cause and they think like you that it deserves killing thousands. The industrial military has no such excuse. It is greed.

      Your power comes with a responsibility and I am scared when I see the American ideology compounded by the so called liberalist ideology. I am afraid how the American slang has trivialized this death business: "nuke", "body count". Also, this word "unamerican" when I would say "foreigner" or "bad" as if America would be the only reference for anything. I have never heard a french saying "unfrench". Probably, unlike Europeans, you don't have parents having lived a war in their own country, taking different sides or just passively waiting for an end. And yes, I know that America ended it by the sacrifice of its owns and I am thankful for it. But this was a war that lasted years and killed millions of people. Also there was massive unecessary bombing of civilians by the Allied power that could not be justified by any cause. Only by the intrinsic war logic.

      This is an Act of War.

      I don't think there is a need for war if those responsibles can get extradited, judged and sentenced. War is about countries fighting each other. Nothing proves as of today that is an appropriate answer for the WTC horror. War is about gruesome deaths, rapes, inpoverished countries and the death-industry making money and installing complacent politicians in power.

      I love your country, I love your people. But as a country, you have too big an idea of yourselve. I suggest you buy the Rand-McNally histomap of world history and to put it on a wall of you bedroom like I did. It is a constant reminder that powers come and go. The king is naked just like we are.

      A nice link I came across pursuing my search about the unamerican word: It is nice to see people joking about their own shortcomings. A citation from that site: As Gandhi once wrote, "an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind".

      -- stefp

        What you fail to understand is that this would have decimated smaller countries. A country expended 18 people to not only kill thousands of people but to immobilize a nation.

        If the retribution is not on a massive scale, I'm sure that you will agree, that it is a tactical victory for a country to expend 18 people in the future. A trial is not going to deter future actions. The tactical loss by your plan is very small, and will not prevent future attacks. I'm afraid that a large show of force on a population that cares nothing about civilians, is necessary.

        And I love when people say that we have a high opinion of ourselves. We dole out aid and protection, and we are crapped on by the rest of the world and that we should be very calm when faced with the worst attack that we have ever faced.

        If it had not been for the US having such big opinions of where it belongs in wold politics, I'm afraid that you would be speaking German and goose stepping down the streets.


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