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Re^5: The Corinna RFC for getting modern OO into the Perl core is taking shape

by karlgoethebier (Abbot)
on Aug 28, 2021 at 06:49 UTC ( #11136156=note: print w/replies, xml ) Need Help??


in reply to Re^4: The Corinna RFC for getting modern OO into the Perl core is taking shape
in thread The Corinna RFC for getting modern OO into the Perl core is taking shape

«I said, "do you speak-a my language?" He just smiled and gave me a vegemite sandwich» (Men at Work)

I think our dialogue is (or was) a complete misunderstanding.

Best regards, Karl

«The Crux of the Biscuit is the Apostrophe»

  • Comment on Re^5: The Corinna RFC for getting modern OO into the Perl core is taking shape

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Re^6: The Corinna RFC for getting modern OO into the Perl core is taking shape
by eyepopslikeamosquito (Bishop) on Aug 28, 2021 at 08:18 UTC

    Good to see the Aussie vegemite sandwich quote coming from someone who I'd always assumed lives in Europe! :) Nothing to add except a few more quotes for light relief (mostly lifted from here). Gabriel's pragmatic habitability quote below resonates the most with me.

    The perl5 internals are a complete mess. It's like Jenga - to get the perl5 tower taller and do something new you select a block somewhere in the middle, with trepidation pull it out slowly, and then carefully balance it somewhere new, hoping the whole edifice won't collapse as a result.

    -- Nicholas Clark

    The problem isn't an infrastructure issue, however -- and speaking as one of the handful of people who've had a hand in developing the site's software: It's our own gosh-darn fault. Perlmonks is WAY more complex than when it originally launched. It does a crapload of perl evals and sql queries per page. It's vulnerable to resource hogs. Searching can cripple the database. And right now, I don't think we're gonna fix these problems any time soon. ... It's not a matter of computer resources, as much as human engineering resources.

    -- Re: perlmonks too slow by nate (original co-author of the Everything Engine)

    "It's harder to read code than to write it" (Joel Spolsky) - writing something new is cognitively less demanding (and more fun) than the hard work of understanding an existing codebase ... which might explain the typical exchange below :)

    Developer: The project I inherited has weak code, I need to rewrite it from scratch
    Boss: Will there ever be an engineer who says, the last guy did a great job, let's keep all of it?
    Developer: I'm hoping the idiot you hire to replace me says that

    -- Green Vs Brown Programming Languages

    Habitability is the characteristic of source code that enables programmers, coders, bug-fixers, and people coming to the code later in its life to understand its construction and intentions and to change it comfortably and confidently. Habitability makes a place livable, like home. And this is what we want in software -- that developers feel at home, can place their hands on any item without having to think deeply about where it is. It's something like clarity, but clarity is too hard to come by.

    -- Richard Gabriel's Patterns of Software

    Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler.

    -- famous Einstein misquote

      Thanks. Probably one of the best replies i got ever here.

      «… do something new you select a block somewhere in the middle, with trepidation pull it out slowly, and then carefully balance it somewhere new, hoping the whole edifice won't collapse as a result…»

      Yes. Best regards, Karl (Living in Europe since 1956)

      «The Crux of the Biscuit is the Apostrophe»

Re^6: The Corinna RFC for getting modern OO into the Perl core is taking shape
by mr_mischief (Monsignor) on Sep 01, 2021 at 15:23 UTC

    Perhaps what was misunderstood was that we were having a dialog. You keep isolating snippets and don't answer what was actually asked.

    How would Corinna destroy Perl? Do you think having one well-considered, carefully engineered object system in core is necessarily more complex than the entirety of all the object systems in CPAN? Do you honestly think that, or are you just snarking at us?

      Do you honestly think that, or are you just snarking at us?
      I'm gonna go with snarking. At least he's not snarking anonymously. :)

      I feel you're taking karl too seriously, at least I can never tell when he's being serious and when he's just snarking. I enjoy his replies because I am not even close to predicting what he'll come up with next. Besides, I've found the perfect language for him.

      «… are you just snarking at us?»

      Who the hell is us?

      «The Crux of the Biscuit is the Apostrophe»

        FWIW, I’m in total agreement with everything mr_mischief wrote. Perl is dissipating, slow as ever but clearly. Something has to change and it needs to appeal to a new guard. Corinna appears to be an entirely reasonable, and extremely well-considered, entry point to do that and it won’t break any of my code.

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