Re: Perl for the Masses?
by jepri (Parson) on Jul 25, 2001 at 12:05 UTC
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The moaning Goat Meter. Definately the MGM. It's damned funny, and it's shiny. I think it even whistles.
On the user side, (shameless plug) I wrote a little program to show me all my active connections (incoming and outgoing). It could look nicer, but if you run it on windows you can show people what your browser is up to.
ichimunki was working on a web browser in Perl/Tk, and there is another one here. I'm sure if you wander over to Freshmeat there and type in Perl/Tk there will be a few things there.
There are also two programs I found for designing interfaces in Perl/Tk, a la MS IDEs, but I lost the links to them. Try freshmeat/sourceforge again. ____________________
Jeremy
I didn't believe in evil until I dated it. | [reply] |
Re: Perl for the Masses?
by toadi (Chaplain) on Jul 25, 2001 at 12:25 UTC
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Re: Perl for the Masses?
by ariels (Curate) on Jul 25, 2001 at 11:37 UTC
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Well, some of the things I've seen Perl used for here at work are (in alphabetical order):
- Automated data fetching
- Data munging
- Filtering
- Flow management and scheduling
- Format translation
- Prototyping
- Viewer backends
- Viewers (ASCII, CGI, Perl/Tk based)
All of which is Real Work.
We also have programs running in C and in C++, of course. | [reply] |
Re: Perl for the Masses?
by azatoth (Curate) on Jul 25, 2001 at 12:22 UTC
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Re: Perl for the Masses?
by Albannach (Monsignor) on Jul 25, 2001 at 16:47 UTC
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The act of sorting languages by overall utility is an exercise that
is unlikely to yield useful results, and measuring a language by how
appealing typical applications are to the general public also seems rather silly to me.
If GUI sophistication is the measure of a "true" language,
then Perl is probably not going to show very well, though the
tools to do good GUI development do exist as has already been pointed out.
It may be that the kinds of tasks that Perl is most often applied
to don't need or want a GUI front-end... unless you count your
web browser!
I think what you may be seeing is the way Perl is viewed by the
general 'net population, to whom VB or even Excel macros ar far more
familiar and friendly, and Perl is cryptic and foreign. How
that leads one to believe that data manipulation is not real work
I am at a loss to explain. It sounds more like these people
you are refering to are judging their languages by their
user interfaces. That may be appropriate for some, but for me at least, data munging is by far more
real and important than flashy interfaces (but then I'm not
currently writing end-user applications).
I've coded seriously in many languages for my work and
research, and though my Perl code is neither flashy nor
whiz-bang, it certainly makes my job much easier (and
more enjoyable) than anything else I've used. Try moving any
other code from a DOS to a VAX to Win32 to LINUX without
any significant modifications - Fortran always put up a big fight
but Perl copes very well. In the end, it
is how well a given language suits your specific task and
environment that should determine whether you use it, and
the huge code resource of CPAN combined
with the awesome teaching power of
The Monastery are two significant
bonuses for me.
--
I'd like to be able to assign to an luser | [reply] |
Re: Perl for the Masses?
by dragonchild (Archbishop) on Jul 25, 2001 at 16:47 UTC
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How about a tool used to simulate a portion of a cellphone network in order to test another portion. A few features of the tool:
- Updates took (usually) 10 minutes, once we got the info.
- Was used for 90% of the workload for 2 groups, and 50% for a third
- Was requested by both an internal group and a customer to be sold outside the company, in lieu of we were selling right now.
- One and a half people supported it, as opposed to the similar JAVA application, which required 20 people.
- Supported 3 incompatible versions of messaging (and could support more easily)
- The same code ran on both Unix and Win32. (We didn't release the Win32 version solely because of trying to figure out distribution issues.)
- Had its own scripting language that was used to automate over 10,000 tests, saving close to 25,000 man-hours per year. (That's not an exaggeration.)
And, I could've kept typing.
Now, it didn't have a ton of bells and whistles, but our primary users (engineers) didn't want them. I wanted to add them, but kept being yelled at. :)
Now, in case you're wondering about the merits of Perl, this is what they are:
- Ease of development. You might not release it in Perl, but you prototype it in Perl.
- Ease of maintenance. I've found that it's easier to keep something current in Perl, due to the speedier edit-run cycle.
- Extensibility. Something not in the language? Add it, at the compiler level!
- Ease of transition. Since it's easier to teach someone Perl than, say, C++ or Java, it takes less time for someone to come up to speed to take over your job.
Very frankly, most of the benefits of Perl over VB aren't easy for non-programmers to understand ... cause they're programmer benefits. And, Perl isn't for every job. For what I do, Perl is generally the best option. But, if I was going to sketch out a GUI, I'd use VB. If I was going to write an AI for a game, I'd use C (or asm). Not Perl. | [reply] |
Re: Perl for the Masses?
by perchance (Monk) on Jul 25, 2001 at 14:49 UTC
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Slightly off-topic, I think it's important to understand that (IMHO) Perl is not a bells-and-whistles language. People who think VB is God's gift to anything will not (in general) be able to appreciate the strength and beauty of a proper tool.
As for PHBs, once they need a speedy solution to a serious problem, they'll thank God (and you). The GUIs can come later. I'm not saying it can't, or doesn't, happen differently, it's simply how I've seen it happen - a group of scripts grew in size and importance until it became important to supply an interface for the general public.
--- prechance | [reply] |
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And the difference between
'Perl isn't a "true" language'
and
People who think VB is God's gift to anything will not ... appreciate ... a proper tool.
is what, exactly?
Scott
... they decided that Sneetches are Sneetches
And no kind of Sneetch is the best on the beaches,
That day, all the Sneetches forgot about stars
And whether they had one, or not, upon thars.
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I think the first probably means that the compiled snobs are saying that Perl's partially-interpreted nature means it's not a "true" language.
The second refers to the idiocy of people who speak on topics that they have no knowledge of. :)
Now, in VB's defense, it is a very, very useful tool. It makes the MS products (partially) extensible, and extensibility is (almost) always a "Good Thing"(tm). It's also great for sketching GUI's, just as Perl is great for sketching programs. But, just try writing a multi-platform data-munging tool in VB. *grins*
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Very little difference, but somehow I don't think that's what you meant. You see, in my opinion People who say Perl isn't a "true" language, are guilty of much the same thing as those who think VB can solve all their problems. Granted, I may have been more strongly worded on the second issue (I suppose personal histories have shaped that), but both are closed-minded, and unproductive.
Find the useful tool.
--- perchance
p.s. I don't have anything in particular against VB, more against bosses who extoll without cause.
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Re: Perl for the Masses?
by toma (Vicar) on Jul 26, 2001 at 11:17 UTC
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One of the important things for a 'real' language is a
slick GUI-based debugger. I demonstrate ptkdb to show
a decent GUI and a great debugger. I have often squelched
perl criticism by demonstrating ptkdb.
The primary critique of perl is actually economic.
The idea that best-in-class tools are open-source
scares many people. The
feasibility of open-source implies that someone
could destroy a closed-source business with a
competetive open-source program. Many people would
like to deny that this is possible or desirable.
These same people are often afraid of non-perl
open-source tools such as Linux. Such people can sometimes
be reassured by telling them that you can buy support for
these tools from a reputable support organization.
Then they get to think, "Well, our world-class support
organization will prevent an open-source upstart from
knocking us off."
Often perl source code is hidden on a web server,
where people can get
the benefits of running the program without having access
to the source code. If your business model is "I write
source code and sell the executable," you are likely to think
"perl is a web-server language."
I think that perl is an anomaly in the software
world because it is clean, fast, and cheap. As such,
it violates people's expectations. If you agree with me
and you want be a perl advocate,
consider that this anomaly may require extra explanation.
I like explain the benefits of perl using the FURPS model:
Functionality
Usability
Reliability
Performance
Supportability
By running down this list and showing how perl stacks
up, you can make a good case.
It should work perfectly the first time! - toma | [reply] |
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- One of the important things for a 'real' language is a slick GUI-based debugger.
And and in perland goes, for free. Check Open Perl @ sourceforge.net. Slick GUI debugger, like Visual Basic (hoovering mouse over variable displays current value, etc.). For ActiveState/Windows perl only.
pmas
To make errors is human. But to make million errors per second, you need a computer.
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#!/usr/bin/perl -d:ptkdb
$|++;
BEGIN { $ENV{DISPLAY}; }
You can single step or set breakpoints in your cgi and watch
the output get rendered in your browser as you go.
It should work perfectly the first time! - toma | [reply] [d/l] [select] |
Re: Perl for the Masses?
by John M. Dlugosz (Monsignor) on Jul 25, 2001 at 22:35 UTC
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Yes. I have a internal component distribution manager that uses Tk, keeps track of dependancies, reconfigures the build environment, and all kinds of stuff. it has menus, right-click popup, icons, the works.
And don't forget, CGI stuff can indeed be whiz-bang impressive. Like, PerlMonks itself. | [reply] |
Re: Perl for the Masses?
by Ea (Chaplain) on Jul 26, 2001 at 14:23 UTC
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We in Support have been using
WREQ
(Author: Yunliang Yu wreq@math.duke.edu) to track tech and systems
requests. It's web based and available to anybody to view
what progress is being made on their requests. It keeps the
small, dificult jobs from falling through the holes and actually
lets the staff know that we have more important things to do than
changing the little banner that used to appear on their email
printouts. Now, our mantra over the phone for requests that
take more than 5 minutes is "Put it in the WREQ". I recommend
(should that be wreqommend? ;) it highly.
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