Re: Should I use carp/croak or warn/die

in reply to Should I use carp/croak or warn/die

On a meta level ...

Personally I find the interface not too convincing

The words "carp", "cluck" and "croak" are far from basic English and hard to explain to colleagues. ( Why do ravens "die" while a fish only "warns"?)
The connotation to the caller is not evident for me. (Do ravens croak to (telephone) callers?)
Sometimes I'd like to also have a stack-trace for warn/die (i.e. from the actual error line - yes I know Devel::Confess but why an extra module?)
~~Sometimes I don't know how many levels up the user of my module called. Having an option to "carp" from the first caller in a different package would be nice. (This is more a nice to have)~~ happens already.

I ended up writing my own routines handling all of this, because we have to install our own die-handlers too, but I'm far from having a convincing solution yet.

Even considering the interface ...

... maybe something like warn_up $level, msg with special "levels", like a package-regex or something and negative numbers for stack-trace.

Nevertheless thanks for the question, frontpaged! =)

Cheers Rolf
_{(addicted to the Perl Programming Language :)

Wikisyntax for the Monastery}

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Re^2: Should I use carp/croak or warn/die by jeffenstein (Hermit) on May 30, 2018 at 16:45 UTC
I'm guessing it's an Americanism. Sorry about that to the rest of the world ;) "Carping" is slang for complaining about something. ex: He was carping about the wait for a table. "Croaking" is slang for dying. ex: Your pet fish croaked last night They were rare in my youth, and outside of Perl, I haven't heard them used in probably 30 years. Update: Just for kicks, here are some synonyms for "carp" from the Merriam-Webster dictionary: bellyache, bleat, caterwaul, croak, fuss, gripe, grouse, nag, whine, and whinge. It could have been worse.	[reply]
Re^3: Should I use carp/croak or warn/die by RonW (Parson) on May 30, 2018 at 22:06 UTC
Actually, "carp", used as a verb, meaning complain, has been in use since the 1500s, so is long past the slang stage. However, "croak" is still considered a slang term.	[reply]
Re^3: Should I use carp/croak or warn/die by LanX (Saint) on May 30, 2018 at 17:09 UTC
Well yes, I can construct mnemonics, German and English being very similar helps. But still I'm confused about the need to have several names for things which are almost similar - i.e. different only in orthogonal dimensions - instead of parametrizing them. Thanks anyway! =) Cheers Rolf _{(addicted to the Perl Programming Language :) Wikisyntax for the Monastery}	[reply]
Re^4: Should I use carp/croak or warn/die by Your Mother (Archbishop) on May 30, 2018 at 17:19 UTC
I agree that PHPisms like 500 extra, semi-overlapping keywords can be a bad thing but I've always liked Carp's interface. Taking the generalized and parameterized route to extremes is `warn` and `die` becoming replaced with `error($level, $message)` or something. I use Carp's functions enough, including `longmess` and `shortmess` for logs, that I much prefer having specific functions for `ack`ing around and such.	[reply] [d/l] [select]
Re^5: Should I use carp/croak or warn/die by LanX (Saint) on May 30, 2018 at 17:27 UTC
Re^6: Should I use carp/croak or warn/die by Your Mother (Archbishop) on May 30, 2018 at 17:48 UTC
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Re^4: Should I use carp/croak or warn/die by jeffenstein (Hermit) on May 30, 2018 at 17:43 UTC
I can only guess why Larry & Co. did it this way, and that guess would be that it was to preserve backwards-compatibility with perl 4, which already had the current interface for warn and die. Did caller exist in perl 4? It kind of makes sense to use a different interface since modules got a lot of changes in 5.0	[reply]
Re^5: Should I use carp/croak or warn/die by afoken (Chancellor) on May 30, 2018 at 21:52 UTC
Re^5: Should I use carp/croak or warn/die (perl4) by shmem (Chancellor) on May 31, 2018 at 00:04 UTC
Re^2: Should I use carp/croak or warn/die by SBECK (Chaplain) on May 30, 2018 at 16:22 UTC
Thanks for your reply! When/if you ever release the a module to do this, I definitely would want to use it. I'm learning that I really need to rethink how I do warn/die (or their equivalent).	[reply]
Re^2: Should I use carp/croak or warn/die by Haarg (Priest) on May 31, 2018 at 19:23 UTC
Having an option to "carp" from the first caller in a different package would be nice. This is how carp and croak always work.	[reply]
Re^3: Should I use carp/croak or warn/die by LanX (Saint) on May 31, 2018 at 19:33 UTC
Yeah I noticed in the meantime See Re^4: Should I use carp/croak or warn/die (@CARP_NOT) Though I'm not happy about the documentation. the Synopsis says > warn user (from perspective of _caller_) But later the doc says inside the text > carp() or croak() which report the error as being from where your module was called. Cheers Rolf _{(addicted to the Perl Programming Language :) Wikisyntax for the Monastery}	[reply]
Re^2: Should I use carp/croak or warn/die (@CARP_NOT) by LanX (Saint) on May 30, 2018 at 20:02 UTC
> Sometimes I don't know how many levels up the user of my module called. Having an option to "carp" from the first caller in a different package would be nice. (This is more a nice to have) Though I'm not sure if @CARP_NOT could be used for this ... Cheers Rolf _{(addicted to the Perl Programming Language :) Wikisyntax for the Monastery}	[reply]
Re^3: Should I use carp/croak or warn/die (@CARP_NOT) by stevieb (Canon) on May 30, 2018 at 22:36 UTC
From my experience, mucking with the likes of caller and/or any aspect of such an undertaking of tracking and reporting from nested modules and subs is fraught with frustration, angst, head-desking and oftentimes throwing things... particularly when dealing with anony-subs and the like :)	[reply]
Re^4: Should I use carp/croak or warn/die (@CARP_NOT) by shmem (Chancellor) on May 31, 2018 at 00:10 UTC
That's right. But sometimes caller is needed to implement nifty YAGNIs :) perl -le'print map{pack c,($-++?1:13)+ord}split//,ESEL'	[reply]
Re^3: Should I use carp/croak or warn/die (@CARP_NOT) by Anonymous Monk on May 30, 2018 at 21:52 UTC
Though I'm not sure if @CARP_NOT could be used for this ... How could it? I mean @CARP_NOT is a package variable that is (or so I suppose) evaluated at compile-time. How could that be used to implement the run-time feature of reporting the the first caller of a different package? I don't really know to be honest, you could be right, but my working hypothesis here is that you're simply blah-blahing here. So please enlighten us...	[reply]
Re^4: Should I use carp/croak or warn/die (@CARP_NOT) by LanX (Saint) on May 30, 2018 at 22:29 UTC
I wouldn't ask if I knew. > evaluated at compile-time. nope that's obvious from the docs and from a simple test. > you're simply blah-blahing here. Look who's talking... Anyway carp() seems to already do by default what I wanted. \o/ It doesn't report from the caller function but the caller package. `use strict; use warnings; use Data::Dump qw/pp dd/; TEST::first(); # <- line 6 #push @main::CARP_NOT, qw(TEST); # uncomment to see dynamic behaviour #TEST::first(); package TEST; use Carp; sub first { second(); } sub second { carp "some warning"; }` [download] `some warning at d:/Users/RolfLangsdorf/pm/carp_not.pl line 6.` Cheers Rolf _{(addicted to the Perl Programming Language :) Wikisyntax for the Monastery}	[reply] [d/l] [select]

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